In order for the Mormon church to make any sense, there has to have been a Restoration. In order for there to need to be a Restoration, there has to have been a Great Apostasy. This is fundamental enough that the new Preach My Gospel manual that the missionaries use starts out with the Great Apostasy from the beginning. The main problem, in my opinion, is that there’s no good evidence that such a Great Apostasy occurred, at least to the extent that it would have needed to occur for Mormon theology to make sense.
From the standpoint of Mormonism, the Apostasy meant that 1) there were no more living prophets and/or apostles to continuously reveal the truth, 2) true doctrine became subverted by human ideas and was thus lost (and without living prophets, it was not re-discoverable), and 3) the priesthood authority was gone from the earth.
Each one of those points is incredibly problematic. The first point seems hard to argue with, because nobody was claiming to receive revelation, prophet-style, on behalf of all Christendom. To many Mormons, thats eals the deal. However, the sad truth is that the Latter-Day church doesn’t seem to get ay revelation, either. After Joseph Smith, there’s basically been a long line of prophets who don’t prohesy. Now, most Mormons will dispute this, and their evidence will be geenrally statements that they personally ascribe prophetic-revelation-status to (though the maker of the statement did not), or they appeal to the “probability” that the prophet gets these big revelations all the time, but doesn’t share them with the Church and the world for whatever reason. Or, barring those, they will shift their definition of revelation to include a moregeneral type of inspiration.
In any case, there’s not much evidence that the rate of contemporary revelation right now was any different than during the Great Apostasy. Nevertheless, there’s a differnence- the next two points (true doctrine and priesthood authority) make clear the difference between the Church during the Great Apostasy and the Latter-Day Church.
James E. Talmage, in pretty much any book he wrote, was quick to trot out shady, questionable doctrines and practices of the medieval Catholic church as evidence of its apostasy. What it basically comes down to is that doctrines were changed away from the “plain and precious truths” that were taught by Jesus Christ and his apostles. This is also problematic, for a couple of reasons.
First, despite what Mormons may learn in Primary and Sunday School, many doctrines and practices have also changed during the not-quite-two-hundred years of the latter-day church. I need only mention the big, contentious ones like polygamy, Blood Atonement, and the Adam-God theory. Sure, some of those doctrines have come and gone, but so did some of the questionable Catholic doctrines that Talmage loves to pick on. It’s not limited to the anti-Mormon fodder, either. Plenty of other doctrines and practices have changed or evolved over time and members don;t even bat an eye.
As an aside- a common Mormon metaphor for the Apostasy and Restoration is a broken glass. You can’t just put the pieces of a broken glass back together to make the cup good again; you have to actually make a new cup. The broken glass is the Christian church during the Apostasy and the new-blown glass is the Restored church. If the Apostasy was just a matter of inspired leadership and correct doctrine, then the metaphor is complete junk. Rediscovering old, correct doctrine, if such a thing exists, is merely a matter of going back to old texts and seeing what was taught before the change away from the truth. It is well within human capability, and it’s exactly what the Reformers were trying to do. If it was just a matter of inspiration/revelation and true doctrine, then the Reformation (and accompanying counter-reformation) should have done the trick. The Mormon Church even teaches that those men were inspired.
This is the point in the discussion where the Mormon falls back to the bunker of Priesthod authority, but I am afraid there is no cover to be found there either.
According to Mormon theology, the big evidence for the Apostasy and Restoration, the real clincher, was authority. God’s priesthood, the power and authority to act (and lead) in His name, was gone from the earth. It had to be fully restored in order for God to run things the right way, for the ordinances like baptism to have any effect, and for the Kingdom of God to be built on earth.
However, there’s no real indication that the Priesthood, assuming that it did indeed exist the way that Mormonism teaches that it once did, ever left the earth. In fact, I think it’s completely and utterly unreasonable to think that it did.
Mormonism believes in a lay priesthood- all worthy men can (and these days should and are) be ordained deacons, teachers, priests, and elders. This Priesthood existed in the time of the apostles, but it was lost, so only the apostles themselves could give the Priesthood back to us. Thus, first John the Baptist and then Peter James and John appeared to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery to give them this priesthood, so there would be an unbroken line of authority back to Jesus Christ (for the Melchizidek Priesthood) and to Aaron (for the Aaronic Priesthood).
But that means that this lay Priesthood existed in New Testament times, but it had disappeared by Joseph Smith’s time. The problem is that the Christian church didn’t disappear during that time. In order to have the Priesthood die out and fade away but the Church continue, you’d have to have an entire generation of Priesthood-holders simply not give the Priesthood to anyone else. Simultaneously, you’d have to have an entire generation of Church leadership come in and claim leadership positions without even holding the Priesthood (if you think about that in the framework of the modern Mormon Chruch, it doesn’t even make sense).
The Mormons claim that John, not Linus, was the second leader of the Church (since he got Revelation on Patmos after Peter’s death, and only the leader of the Church would get scriptural revelation like that), which means that the Catholic line of authority was broken from the beginning. The problem with that apologetic is that it confuses leadership with the Priesthood. Linus may not have been “the prophet,” but as a member of the Church, there’s no reason at allt ot hink he didn’t have the Priesthood. Past that, the Catholic church (and the Orthodox Church and even the Anglican Communion) can show an unbroken line of apostolic succession all the way down to the current set of bishops. What reason then is there to believe that all those bishops don’t have the Priesthood?
Sure, they may not use it right, and they may have their heads full of false doctrine, but Mormon theology is pretty clear that priesthood authority doesn’t go away despite personal apostasy. A wicked missionary’s baptism is still valid, because he had the authority, and it was the Priesthood (i.e., God) doing the job, not him. Look at Alma the Elder in the Book of Mormon- he was one of a whole crop of evil clergymen who were ordained by the equally wicked King Noah and were doing al kinds of wring things and teaching all kinds of wrong doctrines. Nevertheless, the line of authority that gave Alma his Priesthood was still a valid one, so he could baptize all of those people at the Waters of Mormon. If he had the Priesthood, then why don’t the Roman Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox clergy have the Priesthood?
In short, although there may have been a falling away from the truth over time, there’s no real reason to believe that The Great Apostasy ever happened in such a way as to necessitate the Restoration as it is taught in Mormonism.
Note- I have added this post to my Sailing Away From Mormonism page.
Rather than basing your conclusions on the view of the Apostacy in the writings of James Talmage, you might want to consider some of what is now being taught and published about the apostacy.
A seminal statement would be Robert Millet’s presentation at the Joseph Smith Symposium in Washington, DC. You can see excerpts at this link:http://ldsfocuschrist.blogspot.com/2007/04/latter-day-saints-refocus-on-jesus.html
Regarding our position that the Apostacy was not as deep, and that much truth remains among the other Christian churches, see this link: http://ldsfocuschrist.blogspot.com/2007/05/validity-of-beliefs-of-other-christians.html
Other blogs on the site show recent instances of Latter-day Saint leaders and authors emphasizing the same thoughts, including Apostle Ballard’s very recent (last month) description of our love for and reliance on the Bible, and our appreciation for the translators and reformers who preserved it: http://ldsfocuschrist.blogspot.com/2007/04/for-people-who-are-interested-in.html
The LDS website now says about our doctrines that things taught be individual leaders in the past is not in our doctrine today. Our doctrines consist of our scriptures, including the Bible; official pronouncements by the First Presidency and Twelve; current teachings of our leaders; and current curriculum of the church. See this link: http://ldsfocuschrist.blogspot.com/2007/05/approaching-church-doctrine.html
I am hopeful that we can focus on real differences instead of the differences and attitudes on both sides one hundred and fifty years ago, and also that we can recognize that we have a common battle against immorality and secularism, and that if it is lost, we all go down.
Steve St.Clair
Steve, you know I’m a recent ex-Mormon, right?
Nothing that you said even comes close to addressing my main thesis statement in this post, which is that without a Great Apostasy, there was no need for a Restoration. See my next post, “Why Wasn’t Joseph Smith A Roman Catholic?” for some more of my conclusions on the topic. In fact, emphasizing the truth found in the rest of Christianity only underlines the tenuous position of the Restoration doctrine (because it makes it all hang on Priesthod authority, and that’s not, in my opinion, a sufficient peg to hang it on).
I’m not an evangelical Christian who is offended by the doctrine of the apostasy, Steve. I’m an ex-Mormon who thinks that the doctrine is logically unsound.
Changing doctrine in the Church? Steve, you’re actually contributing to my argument. If doctrine shifts and changes, then there’s no meaningful difference between the LDS church now and the “Great and Abomniable Church” during the height of the Great Apostasy.
I’m not even going to get started on the line about “common battle against immorality and secularism.” That’s completely unsound doctrine, for both Christians and Mormons. The battle is inside you, not in the social or political sphere.
I personally think the great Apostasy is only beginning now and it is being propagated by Christendom itself and all it’s messed up traditions. It includes all denomination of churches that profess Jesus Christ but only in name and hardly in practice.
Check out my blog if you would like to see all my reasons for believing this. http://whatisthechristianchurch.blogspot.com/
Disclaimer: I do take into consideration all the real Christians that are true followers of Jesus Christ as the Way. That show by the fruit of their effort and labor in gaining converts as opposed to creating apostates.
Do not judge, or you too will be judged.. Matthew 7:1
M.A.C.
I appreciate your well thought out arguments against a total apostasy. There are several concrete reasons to ratify your position as well, i.e., the three Nephites who are supposed to have continued on the Earth until the return of Christ (3 Nehphi 28:1-8). Jesus would have to be a false prophet for the church to have been prevailed against (Mat 16:18.). According to Apostle Orson Pratt evil did prevail against the church (JOD 13:125) I could go on about so many martyrs who died defending the gospel through the ages but I think the point is made for anyone who really cares to know the truth.
I am not LDS and have never been LDS. But I am Orthodox and I have always found the apostasy claim to be…well… rather funny. I don’t meanto be rude but you can go to Thessalonika and just see the Church Paul founded. Churches like that are all over the place with a direct line of bishops and teaching back to the Apostles. I mean reading the Epistles of say ignatius of Antioch, disciple of Peter and Paul doesn’t read like LDS teaching and practice but very much like Orthodoxy.
Just my two cents. Best of luck with your journey.
Acolyte- the LDS doctrine of the Apostasy basically pretends that the Eastern Orthodox faith doesn’t exist. Discovering Orthodoxy was one of the first things that led my brother to seriously start questioning Mormonism.
Kullervo,
yeah, I know. I have talked to enough LDS missionaries to know that I must be some kind of demonically engineered sophisticated hologram. If you are interested in learning *about* Orthodoxy, let me know. I can save you some time via recommended reading.
http://www.energeticprocession.com
I’m excited to tell you how much Eastern Orthodoxy has come to mean to me.
I first read “Early christian Baptism and the Catechumenate”, the volume on Italy, North Africa and Egypt, and the volume on East and West Syria. Noting that I was far more attracted to the Syrian sources than the Latin ones, I read Ephrem the Syrian (the Paulist Press version) and then virtually all of the obsure publications of his hymns.
This was followed by studies of Gregory of Nyssa (the Life of Moses), Cyril of Jerusalem (Lectures on the Christian Sacraments), and the complete works of Pseudo-Dionysius (after reading an amazing article called DIONYSIUS AREOPAGITA: A CHRISTIAN MYSTICISM? by Alexander Golitzin).
A great “Orthodox” scholar by the name of Dr. John Mark Reynolds at Biola University in La Mirada (close to my home) has become a favorite. I noted a study comparing Eastern Orthodox versus “Evangelical” theology on the Biola website when he was hired and some other faculty were questioning whether he could sign their statement of faith. On point affter point, I said to myself, “Latter-day Saints are more like Eastern Orthodox than anyone else”.
Based on Dr. Reynolds’s recommendations, I have begun studying Christian “Spiritual Formation” and have read the book “Celebration of Discipline” by Richard Foster. He makes great use of “Eastern Orthodox” sources.
Of course, Latter-day Saints are interested in the Theosis / Deification process that is such a crucial part of Eastern Orthodox thought, and our scholars are studying into how it differs from and relates with our belief in the eventual deification of man in the afterlife …. understanding now is tending to dwell on the fact that we will never have God’s incommunicable attributes, ever approach the members of the Godhead in glory, or ever be a source of divinity to others.
I was also excited that my Alma Mater, Brigham Young University, has started “two series that promote the study of Eastern Christian literature. Eastern Christian Texts provides specialists and nonspecialists with reliable English-language translations of seminal works paired with facing original-language texts. The Library of the Christian East is a comprehensive collection of introductions to Eastern Christian authors and topics.
In these series all of the Eastern Christian traditions will be represented, including the Eastern Orthodox, Eastern Catholic, Oriental and Oriental Orthodox, and other Eastern Christian churches and sects. Each volume is produced to meet the highest editorial standards and is elegantly designed to reflect the dignity of the tradition it represents; yet the price is kept at a minimum to encourage wide dissemination.”
The first publication, just off the press, is a Syriac / English edition of …. formerly unpublished poems by Ephrem the Syrian! The authors / translators are “Orthodox” scholars Sebastian Brock and George Kiraz
This is a permanent new study center at BYU. What few people know is that the reason it is happening is that my former BYU Computer Science professor Alan Ashton, who also founded and grew wealthy from Word Perfect corporation, has fallen in love with Eastern Christian texts, and is making it happen financially.
We overlap …
Thanks, Steve St.Clair
Latter-day Saint
your name. Kallevla !!! My Father’s middle name. Karelian of course. I am OCA Orthodox. Are you Finnish? I am ex LDS as well.
sincerely,
david k. kaapro
I’m not actually Finnish at all, much to my sadness. Because I’m oddly obsessed with Finland and Finnish things. So I’m jealous of your Finnishness.
ha! Great post, Kullervo. Thanks!
just a quick note. i stumbled across this post via google, so i can’t imagine i’ll be seeing it again.
it should be noted that you would be hard pressed to find actual teachings from those in authority in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints that back up some of things noted. one to take particular care with is saying that the church has “cancelled out” or “gotten rid of” doctrines. this is not the case. our teachings come from the scriptures. that being the case, however, not all laws are in force at all times. a practicularly effective example from the Bible is Christ teaching about divorce Matt 19:7-8. he states that divorce (for reasons other than a few listed) was allowed because the hardness of the people’s hearts, not because it was God’s ultimate law. for teachings in this area from The Book of Mormon, take a look at Jacob 2:23-27. it teaches that plural marriage (such as practiced by Abraham, Israel, among other prophets) is only allowed as commanded by God. it was practiced as the Lord willed it to be, and when.
it is the same today. one teaching many of you will be familiar with, the Word of Wisdom, is an example from the restored church. it was not in effect when the Church was first organized, and was not declared as a commandment for several years following. whether or not you believe the revelation to be true, it holds to the rule that is proffessed by the LDS Church. God has laws and princliple that are eternal, and he will give them to his people in his wisdom, not at convenience or upon demand.
as far as the loss of authority, the history is to complicated to record here (and to be fair, though familiar, i’m certainly no expert), but it’s a simple decision you have to make. if the Eastern Orthidox Church, Catholocism, or any other church would claim to have the authority of God, check it’s fruits. review it’s teaching in comparison to the Bible (being sure to seperate the Bible from teachings that came through the ages by way of scholasticism or misinterpitation), and ask God about it. simple as that. learn what you can, then ask if the conclusion you’ve come to is correct. the same principle you’ve probably heard from lots of missionaries from our church. if you seek honestly, and are looking for an answer from God rather than an assurance that you’re right no matter what you think, He won’t steer you wrong.
the one other point to hit on is your defenition of a “prophecy”, as you claim it’s been absent in the LDS Church. this is simply an error in observation. whether or not they are true is an argument you could take up if bothered enough, but prophecies have taken place. i think the reason many miss it is because it doesn’t always come in hell-fire-and-brimstone tones. official church statements such as the Proclamation to the World on the Family arose not long before the hot topic of homosexual marriage. for several years, the prophet made great effort to ensure that we are free of debts and obligatory payments. look at the current financial situation. each of these times, and many other times, church members have been counseled that we take certain action and precaution in light of what is ahead. again, you may or not believe that these prophecies and counsels came from God. fair enough. however, the idea that they simply do not come out is incorrect.
i know a fair number of those that have posted have mentioned they’re ex-mormons. in my experience speaking with those who have either left or been ex-communicated from the Church, they don’t care what facts may point to the Church’s validity, but instead focus on facts (often distorted or completely untrue) that they view in contradiction to “the truth” or any real form of theism. hopefully someone will at least bother to think about what i’ve mentioned, and more importantly ask God for guidance. the only way to know what God says is true is to ask him. that’s how i know the Church is true. i believed it was true, though i did have many questions, several of which have been listed above. one of the possible factors of me winding up stronger in the faith rather than against it is that i asked both the Church and the rest of the world. i heard both views and asked which was correct. i got my answer.
When will they ever learn their own history? Or actually listen to those who have left the Mormon church? That would be nice.
If there is no universal apostasy of the Church,then the whole basis for Mormonism collapses
Yeah, that is kind of my point.