When I went running this afternoon, I saw some of the Mormon missionaries doing street contacting outside my apartment complex. As per my usual, I began to have a lively discussion/argument with an imaginary missionary in my head. This time, our argument was about the Book of Mormon (I didn’t bring my iPod, so I had nothing else to do but suffer for three miles; otherwise I would have probably been listening to the Doors).
One of the most frustrating things to me about Mormonthink–and something that I think is evidence of cultlike behavior and cultlike thought in the Mormon church and culture–is how complicated, intermeshed ideas get blurred together into a simple question of “true or not true” that winds up really obscuring and distorting the ideas that are being manipulated.
Specifically, when a Mormon talks about the Book of Mormon being “true,” they mean at least three different distinct things. First, there is the question of whether or not the Book of Mormon is a faithful translation of an authentic ancient document written by Hebrew religious leaders in the western hemisphere. Second, there is the question of to what extent the religious and spiritual concepts expressed in the Book of Mormon (regardless of its authorship) reflect eternal truths. Third, there is the question of whether Joseph Smith Jr. found and translated the Book of Mormon by God-given supernatural means.
In my experience Mormons often conflate these three issues, or insist that they are logically linked so that you can’t have any one without the others, and so they just wind up bearing their testimonies about how the Book of Mormon is TRUE. It’s imposing black-and-white thinking on a potentially nuanced and relatively controversial set of issues, and as such it honestly pushes the boundaries of brainwashing tactics.
Of course I am generalizing here. Plenty of Mormons have thought through all of the questions I have raised here, and have an answer–even possibly a really nuanced answer–for each. Nevertheless to the extent that they simply use the shorthand of talking about the Book’s truth, generally, they are truncating the issues and contributing to a paradigm that discourages or disables critical thinking. And that’s no good.
NOTE: At one time I down comments on this post because it was kind of swallowing my blog and dominating the traffic, but enough time has passed that I decided to open it again, especially since Jonathan Blake has since closed down the comments on his “Convince Me” thread.
Sailing to Byzantium 
interestingly, I think that nowadays, some of these factors aren’t linked *as* strongly. I mean, of course, it’s the difference between liberal mormonism and orthodoxy still, but I’ve seen a few members who will accept point 2 (e.g., belief that the doctrines contained inside the book are correct) without accepting point 1 (that the BoM is a historical document.) And even apologists try to slip around with these points…where did the BoM take place? The entire hemisphere or just a localized area? Were they exclusively Hebrews…or were there just some Hebrews in an area with other genetic influences? etc. etc.,
Certainly! But this gets into the nuanced realms of apologists, liberal Mormons, and Mormon intellectuals. It’s not the analytical framework that the Church curriculum employs, and its certainly not the way that missionaries present the Book of Mormon to their contacts.
And I’ve made the point that just establishing Joseph Smith as a true prophet and the Book of Mormon as a true book doesn’t automatically get you to the conclusion that the modern LDS Church is true.
I think that when a Mormon states that the Book of Mormon is true, the statement behind the statement is that they sincerely believe that the Book is from God and was brought forth by his power. The three beliefs that you mention are then secondary and flow out from the primary testimony of the believer.
Nope. You’ve just actually pointed at the beliefs I have talked about, but you’re muddling them up by using Mormon rhetoric that serves to obscure meaning instead of to convey it.
“The Book of Mormon was brought forth by his power” = “Joseph Smith Jr. found and translated the Book of Mormon by God-given supernatural means”
“The Book of Mormon is from God” = “The Book of Mormon’s authors were divinely inspired.” I did not list that as one of my three, because it is complex and also subject to a certain amount of deconstruction as we have to confront the question of what does it mean for a text (or a text’s authors) to be divinely inspired? With the Doctrine and Covenants it’s a bit easier, since Joseph Smith pretty much claimed to have written it all down as dictated to him by Jesus Christ via the Holy Ghost. The rest of scripture can be trickier; just ask a dozen different Protestants of various stripes what “God-breathed” means and watch the sparks fly.
In any case “from God” is broad enough to encompass all three of the beliefs I mentioned: it is a faithful historical record of a people led by God, it contains spiritual truths dictated or transmitted by God, and it was preserved, found, and translated under the direction of God.
When I used to say that the Book of Mormon was true, I generally meant the second point–that the truths in it were from God and eternal truths. The rest of it was kind of irrelevant to me.
Kullervo,
Just found this site and blog.
You bring a very important concept which too few people think about. But I take the very opposite position as you- I think God prepared the plates and the means of their translation to provide a universal mechanism by which individuals from any background can know for themselves of the truth of the whole message.
And the role of Joseph Smith is absolutely connected to the truthfulness of the BOM. It really is all or nothing.
Consider the options you suggest:
1. The history and account in the BOM is correct, but Joseph Smith was not a prophet. This position is not possible. The prophets of the BOM prophesied of the prophet who would be chosen to translate the account. IT TESTIFIES OF JOSEPH BEING A PROPHET.
How would Joseph translate the book if he were not a prophet? Do you think he used supernatural power from another source to translate an ancient record that includes prophesies about him? This is simply not logical.
The ancient record totally sets up Joseph Smith, even by name, as a prophet.
2. Joseph Smith was a prophet, but the BOM is not a true ancient record. Same thing. If he was a prophet, why would God have him bring forth a false book of scripture.
3. I suppose it could be true that the BOM simply contains good moral lessons, but is not an authentic ancient record. This is not what LDS are saying when they say that the BOM is true. But from a purely logical standpoint, this is possible.
Seth- I disagree with you regarding your statement. I would argue that if the BOM and Joseph Smith are what they claim(ed), then the modern church is what it claims. (In similar fashion, the BOM contains prophesies that predict what would happen to the church, and so far, it is spot on).
The logic behind this domino-type sequence is not an accident. I believe God absolutely intended it to be this way. It would require something as miraculous and big as the BOM with all of its claims to convince modern man that God had chosen a prophet in modern times. Without the BOM, it would be difficult to convince many of the authenticy of a prophet chosen and authorized by God to reveal the same principles and truths.
fof
I tend to agree with Seth R!
Just because a Church claims to be something does not make it so! Humor me by remembering history repeats it’self!
After Christ accended to heaven, Christ’s Church was Hijacked by men posing as Christains, but inwardly were raving wolves….. Emperor Constantine needed a state religion to prop up the ailing Roman Empire! So to suit his needs, He and other men like him created the Roman Catholic Church Empire…..
Christs Church, after about 400 years of exhisting upon the earth disapeered into the wilderness, not to be seen or heard from against for over 1200 years.
In 1830, Jesus Christ through Joseph Smith, restored His Church…
Again History repeats it’self! Men once more tried to take over Christ’s Church. The air around Joseph Smith was rife with conspiracy and murder. Three different groups inside the LDS Church conspired against the Prophet.
One group tried to murder the prophet. Eventually succeeding in 1844. Two other groups succeeded in pinnning Joseph Smith with the responsiblity for starting Polygamy…
And the LDS Church split into 13 major groups… According to Joseph Smith’s own words, the church then numbered 200,000 members. 10,000 members followed Brigham Young to Utah. Where members were rebaptized, Priesthood reordained. This “New Reformed Mormon Church” took upon themselves the names, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
It would not be till 14 years latter, the Remnant 200,000 members left reorganized, Calling themselves the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints…
Latter in Court Battles between Salt Lake and Independance MO, Both Churches faught for property and copyright of Church assets and published materials such as the D&C, Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith translation of the Bible.
The Reorganized Church won copyrights and right to all property.
Further the U.S. Courts declared Joseph Smith never taught Plurality of Wives, Adam God Worship or Blood Atonement, but these doctrines were injected into the Salt Lake Church by Brigham Young.
It is the basis a Church is founded upon, which determines if Jesus Christ built it…
It is the core of the Church foundation which determins if its of God. The Catholic Church murdered, raped, and pillage villiages, homes, women and killing their men in the name of Christ.
History has Proven the LDS Church in earlier days has repeated the pattern of apostate behavior.
As I said earlier, history has repeated itself.
Just because the Mormon Church say’s it’s the true Church, does not mean it is.
Christ said, ” By their fruits ye shall know them.”
If you looked at the fruit born by the LDS Church, versus the Fruit born of the RLDS Church, you see to totally different Churchs….. And two totally different worlds of thought!
Sincerely
James Marshall
479-677-2679
Seth- I disagree with you regarding your statement. I would argue that if the BOM and Joseph Smith are what they claim(ed), then the modern church is what it claims.
You appear to be neglecting all of the branches of Mormonism. The church headquartered at SLC do not have sole claim on the legacy of Joseph Smith. Its teachings resemble the teachings of the Book of Mormon very little (especially prior to the changes made in modern editions). So it is possible that, even if Joseph Smith and Book of Mormon are authentic, another branch of Mormonism is the legitimate heir.
The Reorganized Church won copyrights and right to all property.
Further the U.S. Courts declared Joseph Smith never taught Plurality of Wives, Adam God Worship or Blood Atonement, but these doctrines were injected into the Salt Lake Church by Brigham Young.
I’m pretty sure that the RLDS church only won some of the copyrights (e.g. to the Inspired Version). And don’t know about these courts that declared what Joseph Smith did or didn’t teach, but it’s pretty clear that he taught (and practiced) plural marriage privately. Yeah, Adam-God was all Brigham.
fof,
I made this same point in Sunday School a few weeks ago.
Just because you’ve established that the Book of Mormon is true, does not necessarily mean that you have a testimony of the Doctrine and Covenants or Pearl of Great Price. You still have an obligation to study those books and pray about them.
And just because you believe Joseph was a true prophet does not automatically mean you believe that his practice of polygamy was inspired, or that the King Follett Sermon is true. You have to likewise wrestle with those things.
And just because you establish everything in the Joseph Smith era does not automatically get you to a testimony that Thomas S. Monson is a true prophet.
There are no shortcuts here.
You wan to be a disciple of the Restored Gospel? Then be ready for a long hard slog.
There is no Mormon “cheat code.”
I just wanted to clearify a few things I said. I tend to speak in broad generalities like my father did, leaving out important illuminating details about myself or the meaning I intend to convey.
When Children become teenagers, they rebel. They apostize from the teachings if their parents for a time. If the teachings be good teachings, the children will rebel and likely go back to them. Fulfilling the scripture” Raise up your children in the way they should go, and when they are old, they will not depart from it.”
but if the teachings be not of Jesus Christ, but of the devil, say the children were abused by a parent or parents, they will rebel, and in time become the abuser they once despised. Fulfilling the scripture, ” the word of the Lord is shaper than a two edged sword!”
What doesn’t get you in plain site, will catch you unawares on the backstroke.
This is the danger of the LDS Church….
When dealing with evil, the question becomes not if one should rebel, but how one rebels! So that down the road we don’t get snookered back in to the same trap… You see the abuser of the child was most likely unbeknownts to them used by the devil to inflict pain upon the child… Thereby allowing the adversary to manipulate the child who’s in pain without dection. As the child ages and matures, He or she begins to realize something is wrong. They often don’t know what!
The child only has the knowledge taught by it’s parents or gleaned from it’s peer group. Even if Jesus should miraculously intervien in the child’s life ( church if you will ) the child has only what he or she personally knows to fall back on in hard times of pressure….. They will often in those cases resort to the same abusive behavior as their parents… Little realizing the devil is using them the same way he did their parent…
The child never realizes, that through his or her parent, the devil built a stronghold only Jesus Christ can uproot and destroy in him or herself…..
So the question is how does the child/Church rebel, without getting fooled into satans trap?
I don’t have all the answers but I have a few I learned by my own painful life experiances and my own repentance…
Three things to keep in mind.
1. Do we hear the Holy Spirit’s voice, and do the will of the Father inspite of the pursuasions of men?
2. Do our actions say I love you to all mankind? to our wives and family especially? Do we as Church members allow Jesus Christ to lead us in how He wants His Church run and opperated. Do we as a collective people make sure the Prophet or priesthood of the Church does not err in judgement? Do we seek confirmation of the Holy Spirit when the Prophet of the Church spouts a purported revelation? Or do we just say, “Yes sir “and fall into the peer group line ?( do we keep our houses in order as Jesus Christ individually leads us to, not as another man or church teaches )
3. Again, I repeat, do we follow Jesus Christs leading? Do we hear the Fathers will? Can we hear the Holy Spirits still small voice? Do we respond to His words still? Have we a relationship with Jesus Christ, that allows us to hear the Holy Spirit?
The penalty for letting men lead us is spelled out clearly in Jeremiah 17:5-8
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5Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
6For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.
7Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.
8For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.
—————————————————————————-
What I’m going to say next is dirty pool but it’s true.
Jeremiah is writting about he LDS/RLDS Church split. Don’t take my word for it, do your own research. If you still doubt, read the warning of Isaiah chapter 29 ( the Great Book of Mormon Chapter ) about the men who seek to take the great and marvelous work, ( Book of Mormon ) and turn the Potters work upside down. The Bible prophecies they will do this in Secret….
Keep in mind there are two churches in the United States. Both answer the exact descriptions ( Plural ) of Jeremiah 17: 5-8 to a perfect T…. The second description is based by a river, who’s world headquarters in on River Blvd.
But enough of my shameless plugging…..
I write because I see to many Salt Lake Latter Day Saints becoming disenfranchised and they throw the baby out with the bathwater…. Little realizing how close to the truth they are. Little realizing satan is just as real as Jesus Christ. Not realizing Satan is the litteral King of this World system, and he wields great power over men…. And that some men can be easily influenced for the price of a good meal… ( referance to the movie, The Matrix )
Salt Lake Latter Day Saints must look into their own Journals of Church History. They need to look back and realize what has been done to them. Where the wound started, and who did it to them. What was done to all of us, LDS/RLDS/Church of Christ Temple Lot saints…..
We’ve been had! Set up for a fall. Not because the Book of Mormon lacks truth! The Bible conclusively proves the Book of Mormon is of God. That Joseph Smith was a true prophet. But the Bible also warns us of men who will seek actively to destory the church in Joseph Smith’s own time…
But like I said I don’t have all the answers… Just what the Holy Spirit has taught me….
There is a Church where I’ve felt the presence of God. A Church where at certain times, and only in certain congregations where the people would allow Him to come, I’ve felt the Spirit of Jesus Christ….
I been to church services where the Priesthood skedualed to speak would quietly stand, announce they were commanded by the Lord to not speak, and then call someone else in the congregation to give the message.
I have seen Elders Heal people, my own father a priest, who died when I was 12, who in an O.B. hospital room, was commanded by the Holy Spirit to reach out and touch the foot of my youngest brother his son Joshua, who was born blue and technically dead, bringing him to life…
For me what I believe at it’s core is not about Salt Lake Latter Day Saints, versus RLDS Latter Days Saints…
For me it’s about authority. About real spiritual power. About being a servant and member in a church where there is real power.
James Marshall
479-677-2679
I’ve a Question…. Brigham Young’s and Heber C. Kimbal Children have been traced and confirmed by DNA….
Where are Joseph Smiths Children??? And what DNA confirmation is there?
I’ve taken the Liberty to post the Investigational rulings of Candian and U.S. Courts and Congressional Investigational findings…. I hope this doesn’t get me killed by the blog owner??? Please have mercy oh great blog owner sir!
The RLDS/LDS Church in Court
Compiled and Arranged by Elbert A. Smith
A Descendant of Joseph Smith the Martyr
DECISIONS OF UNITED STATES AND CANADIAN COURTS AFFECTING THE STANDING OF
THE REORGANIZED CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS
INTRODUCTION The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was organized April 6, 1830. Joseph Smith, sometimes known as Joseph Smith the Martyr, was the chief instrument in the hands of God in perfecting this organization. Joseph Smith was slain June 27, 1844. A period of confusion and disorganization ensued. Ambitious leaders arose. Among them was Brigham Young, who led a certain number to Utah, where they acquired more or less temporal power, and where they began to promulgate certain doctrines, such as polygamy, that had been no part of the belief of the church in the days of Joseph the Martyr.
Other members of the original church came together and reorganized on the original plan, forming what has since been termed the Reorganized Church. Joseph Smith, the oldest son of Joseph Smith the Martyr, took his place at the head of the Reorganized Church April 6, 1860. He had received a divine personal call to that position, besides having been blessed and set apart for that work by his father. The Reorganized Church claims to be in fact the church of Christ. It claims further to be the legal heir, and in succession to all rights, privileges, and properties belonging to the church established in 1830. These claims have been challenged, and on several occasions the question has been carried to the civil courts, where evidences could be weighed before unprejudiced tribunals and where an authoritative decision could be rendered.
THE KIRTLAND TEMPLE SUIT
February 23, 1880, the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, by its attorneys, appeared before the Court of Common Pleas, Lake County, Ohio, (see journal entry, February term, 1880) as plaintiff, asking for possession of the Kirtland Temple, an edifice erected during the early days of the church, and prior to the death of Joseph Smith the Martyr. The church in Utah, then presided over by John Taylor, was named with others as defendants. Judge L. S. Sherman rendered the following decision: Now at this term of the Court came the Plaintiff by its attorneys, E. L. Kelley, and Burrows and Bosworth, and the Defendants came not, but made default; and thereupon, with the assent of the Court, and on motion and by the consent of the Plaintiff a trial by jury is waived and this cause is submitted to the Court for trial, and the cause came on for trial to the Court upon the pleadings and evidence, and was argued by counsel; on consideration whereof, the Court do find as matters of fact:
1st. That notice was given to the Defendants in this action by publication of notice as required by the statutes of the State of Ohio; except as to the Defendant, Sarah F. Videon, who was personally served with process.
2d. That there was organized on the 6th day of April, 1830, at Palmyra, in the State of New York, by Joseph Smith, a religious society, under the name of “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints,” which in the same year removed in a body and located in Kirtland, Lake County, Ohio; which said Church held and believed, and was founded upon certain well defined doctrines, which were set forth in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Book of Doctrine and Covenants.
3d. That on the 11th day of February, A. D. 1841, one William Marks and his wife, Rosannah, by Warranty Deed, of that date, conveyed to said Joseph Smith as sole Trustee-in-Trust for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, being the same Church organized as aforesaid, the lands and tenements described in the petition, and which are described as follows: [The description of the land is omitted. — E. A. S.]
And upon said lands said Church had erected a church edifice known as The Temple, and were then in the possession and occupancy thereof, for religious purposes, and so continued until the disorganization of said Church, which occurred about 1844. That the main body of said religious society had removed from Kirtland aforesaid, and were located at Nauvoo, Illinois, in 1844, when said Joseph Smith died, and said Church was disorganized and the membership (then being estimated at about 100,000) scattered in smaller fragments, each claiming to be the original and true Church before named, and located in different States and places. That one of said fragments, estimated at ten thousand, removed to the Territory of Utah under the leadership of Brigham Young, and located there, and with accessions since, now constitute the Church in Utah, under the leadership and Presidency of John Taylor, and is named as one of the defendants in this action.
That after the departure of said fragment of said church for Utah, a large number of the officials and membership of the original church which was disorganized at Nauvoo, reorganized under the name of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and on the 5th day of February, 1873, became incorporated under the laws of the State of Illinois, and since that time all other fragments of said original Church (except the church in Utah) have dissolved, and the membership has largely become incorporated with said Reorganized Church which is the Plaintiff in this action.
That the said Plaintiff, the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a Religious Society, founded and organized upon the same doctrines and tenets, and having the same church organization, as the original Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, organized in 1830, by Joseph Smith, and was organized pursuant to the constitution, laws and usages of said original Church, and has branches located in Illinois, Ohio, and other States. That the church in Utah, the Defendant of which John Taylor is president, has materially and largely departed from the faith, doctrines, laws, ordinances and usages of said original Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and has incorporated into its system of faith the doctrines of celestial marriage and a plurality of wives, and the doctrine of Adam-god worship, contrary to the laws and constitution of said original Church.
And the Court do further find that the Plaintiff, the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, is the True and Lawful continuation of, and successor to the said original Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, organized in 1830, and is entitled in law to all its rights and property. The leading points sustained by the above quoted decision may be summarized as follows:
The Reorganization is the legal successor to the church organized April 6, 1830, under the leadership of the Prophet Joseph Smith. That polygamy and kindred false doctrines were first promulgated and adopted by the church in Utah, such doctrines not having any place in the faith of the original church during the days of the Prophet Joseph Smith. That the Reorganized Church, being one with the original church in organization and doctrine, is the legal continuation of said church, and heir to all its rights and properties.
THE RULING OF A CANADIAN COURT
May 19, 1893, Hiram Dickout, a regularly ordained priest of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, at Niagara Falls, Canada, solemnized the marriage of Abraham H. Taylor and Alice E. Vance. Priest Dickout was arraigned before a police magistrate and fined ten dollars. The charge in effect was that the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was not a Christian denomination, and hence under the laws of the Dominion (R. S. O., ch. 131, sec. 1) a minister of that church could not legally solemnize a marriage. An appeal was taken and the case came before Chief Justice Armour, in the Court of the Queen’s Bench, Chancery, Common Pleas Division of the High Court of Justice, for Ontario, at Toronto, November 28, 1893. The following decision was rendered by Judge Armour, see Ontario Reports, vol. 24, pp. 250-254, also reported in the Toronto Mail, November 28, 1893; also in the Globe:
We think it quite clear that this conviction can not be maintained. The defendant was clearly a duly ordained minister of this religious body, and there is no doubt that it is a religious denomination within the words of the statute. Assuming that Christianity is the law of the land in a sense, there is nothing contrary to Christianity in the tenets of this body. It is true they have some authorized works supplemental to the Bible, but that is the case with every church or denomination.
The Church of England has its creeds, and the Presbyterian Church its confession. That does not make the church an anti-Christian one. The statute should receive a wide construction. It does not say “Christian”, but “religious.” If it said “Christian,” it would exclude Jews. The fundamental law of the province makes no distinction between churches or denominations. Every person is at liberty to worship his Maker in the way he pleases. We have, or ought to have, in this country, perfect freedom of speech and perfect freedom of worship. Conviction quashed.
Under the above decision Latter Day Saints enjoy equal rights with other churches in Canada and retain their standing as a religious body. Enemies of the church sometimes charge that it is not Christian, but the charge can not be maintained before an unprejudiced court.
THE TEMPLE LOT SUIT
This case was tried before Judge John F. Philips, in the Circuit Court of the United States, for the Western District of Missouri, Western Division, at Kansas City, Missouri. The property involved was a tract of land in the city of Independence, Missouri, known as the Temple Lot, acquired by the church in the early thirties, and at a later date claimed by a body of people known as the Church of Christ, more commonly called “Hedrickites.”
The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ appeared as plaintiff, the Church of Christ or “Hedrickites” as defendant. The dominant church in Utah came to the aid of the defendant, not openly, but to such an extent that Judge Philips in his decision spoke of it as “the power behind the throne.” They furnished many leading witnesses, including Wilford Woodruff, president of the Utah church, Lorenzo Snow, president of the Utah twelve, and at least two of the women who had become notorious by reason of their claim that they were plural wives of Joseph Smith the Martyr.
Able attorneys represented both sides, and many witnesses were summoned. An abstract of the evidence fills a book of five hundred and ninety-seven pages. The decision of the judge occupies an additional twenty-eight pages.
The question was largely one of doctrine, and a desperate attempt was made to prove that Joseph Smith the Martyr taught polygamy. Every effort possible was made to break down the claim of the Reorganized Church to succession.
The judge sustained the Reorganized Church on every material point. On an appeal to the Appellate Court the decision as to the possession of the property was set aside and the defendants were permitted to retain possession of the Temple Lot, solely on the ground that the Reorganized Church had not moved soon enough, a question of latches. The decision by Judge Philips as to the weight of evidence presented and the standing of the Reorganized Church as the legal successor to the church established April 6, 1830, was never reversed and still stands. The Reorganized Church was merely unfortunate in not presenting its claims at a date sufficiently early to come within the statute of limitation.
In his decision, rendered March 16, 1894, Judge Philips said:
Beyond all cavil, if human testimony is to place any matter for ever at rest, this church was one in doctrine, government, and purpose from 1830 to June, 1844, when Joseph Smith, its founder, was killed. It had the same federal head, governing bodies, and faith. During this period there was matter fundamental, or affecting its oneness. The only authorized and recognized books of doctrine and laws for the government of the church from 1830 to 1846 were the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. The Book of Doctrine and Covenants, which consisted principally of claimed divine revelations to Joseph Smith, was the edition published at Kirtland, Ohio, in 1835, and at Nauvoo in 1845….
There can be no question of the fact that Brigham Young’s assumed presidency was a bold and bald usurpation.
The Book of Doctrine and Covenants (printed in 1846) page 411, containing a revelation to Joseph Smith, January 19, 1841, gave unto them “my servant Joseph, to be a presiding elder over all my church, to be a translator, a revelator, a seer, and a prophet.” … The book clearly taught that the succession should descend lineally and go to the first-born. Joseph Smith so taught, and, before his taking off, publicly proclaimed his son Joseph, the present head of Complainant Church, his successor, and he was so anointed….
The Book of Mormon itself inveighed against the sin of polygamy…. Conformably to the Book of Mormon, the Book of Doctrine and Covenants expressly declared “that we believe that one man should have but one wife, and one woman but one husband.” And this declaration of the church on this subject reappeared in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, editions of 1846 and 1856. Its first appearance as a dogma of the church (the dogma of polygamy) was in the Utah Church in 1852.
Claim is made by the Utah Church that this doctrine is predicated of a revelation made to Joseph Smith in July, 1843. No such revelation was ever made public during the life of Joseph Smith, and under the law of the church it could not become an article of faith and belief until submitted to and adopted by the church. This was never done ….
The Utah Church further departed from the principles and doctrines of the original church by changing in their teaching the first statement in the Article of Faith, which was, “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost,” and in lieu thereof taught the doctrine of “Adam-god worship.” …
It has introduced societies of a secret order, and established secret oaths and covenants, contrary to the book of teachings of the old church. It has changed the duties of the President, and of the Twelve, and established the doctrine to “Obey Counsel,” and has changed the order of the “Seventy, or Evangelists.” …
A considerable number of the officers and members of the church at Nauvoo did not ally themselves with any of the factions, and wherever they were they held onto the faith, refused to follow Brigham Young to Utah, and ever repudiated the doctrine of polygamy, which was the great rock of offense on which the church split after the death of Joseph Smith.
In 1852 the scattered fragments of the church, the remnants of those who held to the fortunes of the present Joseph Smith, son of the so-called “Martyr,” gathered together sufficiently for a nucleus of organization. They took the name of “The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints,” and avowed their allegiance to the teachings of the ancient church; and their epitome of faith adopted, while containing differences in phraseology, in its essentials is but a reproduction of that of the church as it existed from 1830 to 1844. To-day they are twenty-five thousand strong. [At present, 1911, the membership is about sixty thousand. — E. A. S.]
It is charged by the Respondents, as an echo of the Utah Church, that Joseph Smith, “the Martyr,” secretly taught and practiced polygamy; and the Utah contingent furnishes the evidence, and two of the women, to prove this fact. It perhaps would be uncharitable to say of these women that they have borne false testimony as to their connection with Joseph Smith; but, in view of all the evidence and circumstances surrounding the alleged intercourse, it is difficult to escape the conclusion that at most they were but sports in “nest hiding.”
In view of the contention of the Salt Lake party, that polygamy obtained at Nauvoo as early as 1841, it must be a little embarrassing to President Woodruff of that organization when he is confronted, as he was in the evidence in this case, with a published card in the church organ at Nauvoo in October, 1843, certifying that he knew of no other rule or system of marriage than the one published in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and that the “secret wife system,” charged against the church, was a creature of invention by one Doctor Bennett, and that they knew of no such society. That certificate was signed by the leading members of the church, including John Taylor the former President of the Utah Church. And a similar certificate was published by the Ladies’ Relief Society of the same place, signed by Emma Smith, the wife of Joseph Smith, and Phoebe Woodruff, wife of the present President Woodruff.
No such marriage ever occurred under the rules of the church, and no offspring came from the imputed illicit intercourse, although Joseph Smith was in the full vigor of young manhood, and his wife Emma, was giving birth to healthy children in regular order, and was enciente at the time of Joseph’s death.
But if it were conceded that Joseph Smith, and Hyrum, his brother, did secretly practice concubinage, is the church to be charged with those liaisons, and the doctrine of polygamy to be predicated thereon of the church? If so, I suspect the doctrine of polygamy might be imputed to many of the Gentile churches. Certainly it was never promulgated, taught, nor recognized, as a doctrine of the church prior to the assumption of Brigham Young. — Decision of Judge Philips in Temple Lot Case, pp. 20-26.
By reading the foregoing decision the reader will discover the following facts:
1. Brigham Young’s assumption of the presidency was a bold and bald usurpation. 2.He it was who introduced polygamy and kindred false doctrines.
3.These false doctrines are denounced in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants, which three books were the standards of authority in the church during the days of Joseph Smith, and are still standards of authority to the Reorganized Church.
4.An effort to prove that Joseph Smith was a polygamist can not successfully be made before a competent court that is capable of weighing evidence, not even when his reputed plural wives are present.
5. The Reorganized Church is in line of succession and has kept the faith, having shaped its course in harmony with the word of God and in such a way as to merit the approval of all good men.
A STATEMENT BY HON. JULIUS C. BURROWS AND THE HON. FRED T. DUBOIS
Reed Smoot, a member of the twelve apostles of the dominant church in Utah, having been elected to the United States Senate, took the oath of office, March 5, 1903. A protest against the seating of Reed Smoot having been filed with the Senate, the matter was referred to the Committee on Privileges and Elections.
This committee, composed of leading senators of the United States, summoned many witnesses, including the president of the dominant church in Utah, investigated a great mass of documentary evidence, and made a thorough and exhaustive investigation of “Mormon” history. Their work of investigation continued until June, 1906. A transcript of the evidence taken and speeches made fills four large volumes.
The Committee on Privileges and Elections was not a court, in the strict sense of the term, but it had some of the functions of a court. The Reorganized Church was not directly involved, as it had no interest in the seating of Reed Smoot, but the matter was overruled, divinely or otherwise, so that it terminated to our favor.
For these reasons, we have decided to use in this connection certain statements made by the chairman of the committee, United States Senator Julius C. Burrows, while reviewing the matter before the United States Senate, December 11, 1906. The position of the man making the statements, the unusual opportunity that had been his to discover the truth, the great publicity of the utterance, and the fact that it was made before one of the greatest legislative bodies in the world, gives great weight to that which we shall quote. Concerning the origin of polygamy Senator Burrows said:
In order to induce his followers more readily to accept this infamous doctrine, Brigham Young himself invoked the name of Joseph Smith, the Martyr, whom many sincerely believed to be a true prophet, and ascribed to him the reception of a revelation from the Almighty in 1843, commanding the Saints to take unto themselves a multiplicity of wives, limited in number only by the measures of their desires…. Such the mythical story palmed off on a deluded people. — Congressional Record, December 13, 1906.
Concerning the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, he said:
The death of Joseph Smith in 1844, however, carried dismay and demoralization throughout the entire membership of the Mormon church, scattering its adherents in divers directions and for the time being seemed to presage the complete overthrow and dissolution of the organization.
Recovering, however, from the shock, the scattered bands soon reappeared in various parts of the country and promulgated their doctrines with increased zeal, and set to work to reassemble and reorganize their scattered forces, resulting finally in the formation of what is now known and recognized as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, with headquarters at Lamoni, Iowa, and presided over by Joseph Smith, a son of the Prophet. The courts have repeatedly declared this organization to be the legitimate successor of the original Mormon church, and its adherents, numbering some 50,000 peaceable, patriotic, and law abiding citizens scattered throughout the United States in small church societies, conforming to the laws of their country wherever they may be and adhering to the faith of the founder of their creed, repudiating and denouncing the doctrine of polygamy and its attendant crimes, without temple, endowment house, or secret order, worship in the open like other church organizations, unquestioned and unmolested. — Congressional Record, December 13, 1906.
Another member of the Committee on Privileges and Elections, Senator Fred T. Dubois, in a speech before the United States Senate, December 13, 1906, confirmed the statements made by Mr. Burrows. Senator Dubois said:
It is only fair, I think, for me to say — and I am glad the distinguished Senator from Michigan (Mr. Burrows) treated upon it the other day — that there is a branch of the Mormons, called the “Josephites,” who ought to be separated clearly in the minds of all Senators from the Brighamite Mormons. The Josephites claim that they are the custodians of the church as it was founded. They claim that Brigham Young has interjected doctrines into the church which the Mormons did not accept in the beginning. At any rate, however that may be, the Josephite Mormons, with their headquarters at Lamoni, in the State of Iowa, and wherever they are, no matter in what part of the country, are among the best of our citizens in all respects. — Congressional Record, December 17, 1906.
Post a link next time, please.
James, you’re not going to get very far (with me anyway) by trying to deny Joseph Smith’s polygamy. I shouldn’t waste my time getting into the petty pissing match between the LDS and the RLDS churches.
Regarding the lack of progeny outside the Emma Smith marriage, one of the wives, Sarah Pratt, claimed that John C. Bennet performed abortions to prevent this embarrassing possibility. I don’t know how reliable a witness she is, but that’s not outside the realm of possibility.
Anyway, I shouldn’t really care who wants to lay claim to the legacy of a man who couldn’t keep himself from fucking the flock.
Sigh…
Atheists can be such… Puritans when it comes to religion.
Seth, yeah I keep wondering why I should care. I think what gets my goat is the warped facts that people use to justify their worldview. Believe what you want, but get your facts straight.
Mr. Marshall,
I can understand your passion for your subject. I was born RLDS. However, the RLDS church does not exist anymore. It’s the Community of Christ now–and the leadership has moved really far toward a Protestant view of things. Are you a member of one of the Restoration branches? That would be my guess. I attended CoC awhile back, and in my opinion, they have all but abandoned the Book of Mormon. As far as Joseph Smith and polygamy goes, I’ve made my opinion known on other blogs. While I believe there is probably over a 90% chance that Joseph Smith did teach and practice polygamy, the lack of any DNA evidence linking Joseph Smith to the offspring of a woman other than Emma disturbs me. I don’t accept any of the “reasons” various people have tried to give for lack of evidence, either. Joseph Smith supposedly married what, 33 different women? Are you saying John C. Bennett performed abortions on all of them? Maybe some, but not all. Joseph Smith traveled all the time and that’s why there were no other pregnancies? Emma got pregnant all the time. Until I see a positive DNA test, I will never fully believe it. If they can find a skeleton of a prehistoric man over in France, and do a DNA test, and find a living descendant of that man in a village nearby, then they should be able to link Joseph Smith to one of his polygamous descendants.
Seth, I was thinking… if you meant that I was being puritanical about Joseph Smith and polygamy, I couldn’t care much less about the actual polygamy. What I don’t like is all the secrecy and duplicity involved. I can respect Brigham Young’s polygamy a lot more because at least he (eventually) taught it openly. Joseph Smith went to his grave denying the truth.
Seth,
I agree that one should not simply read the Book of Mormon only, neglecting the Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and Bible. My point was that there is a very real and sound logic behind a person saying “if the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith was a prophet and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is what it claims to be.”
But ending one’s pursuit of truth at the testimony of the BOM is not, I believe, wise or what God intended. I totally agree with you.
James and Jonathan,
There is good reason that the BOM came about through miraculous means. Imagine if Joseph had been called to be a prophet and that he translated the BOM through scholarly modern techniques, with nothing being left to the miraculous. One could then accept the BOM as an authentic historical record, yet dismiss Joseph completely.
The prophesies in the BOM text about Joseph as well as the means of the books translation all necessitate Joseph being a true prophet if one accepts the BOM as true.
The BOM speaks of “other books coming forth” after the record of Lehi’s descendents (BOM). Hard to see any other interpretation than that the D&C and POGP are some of those other books.
Also look at what Joseph said about what would happen to the church as well as what the BOM says about it. Then compare what has become of all the splinter groups. There is really no comparison between the splinter groups and the modern church- at least not according to the foundational scriptures and prophet in whom they all claim belief.
In the months before his death, Joseph spent a great deal of time, almost daily, meeting with the twelve apostles. According to them, he gave them instruction and prepared them to continue leading the church after his death. He had felt for some time, and had said it to many people that he would not live much longer.
fof
fof,
Is it possible for a prophet to fall?
Is it possible for God’s church to go astray?
Seth,
In 3 Nepi, Christ speaks of Joseph Smith. He says that “the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.” 3 Nephi 21:10
I have heard critics say that this was a false prophesy, because it says Christ will heal his servant (Joseph). But understanding the language used by the Savior adds great insights.
Isaiah, whom Christ quoted extensively to the Nephites, said Christ would be “marred more than any man.” Isaiah 52
Mar and Martyr have the same root and origin. Mar is a verb- to hinder and crush. Martyr is a noun- someone who has been marred.
Before his death, Joseph Smith had a dream that he was taken to a barn by his enemies. In the barn, he was beaten and tortured, but he was ultimately able to break away and escape from the barn.
What a beautiful parallel between the dream and passage. The message is that the enemies of God can torture and destroy the body, but never touch the spirit.
It is possible for a prophet to fall, but I do not believe Joseph fell. And the prophesies in the BOM certainly maintain that he would not fall, but die a martyr for the cause of God and to seal his witness.
As far as the church, just read ancient and modern prophesies about the fate and destiny of the church. Isaiah, Daniel, Nephi and many more describe God’s kingdom in the last days. If one believes the BOM, it is very hard to accept the idea that God’s church would fall away instead of fulfilling those many prophesies.
What did Joseph say about the church- that the saints would migrate to the Rockies and establish the kingdom of God which would ultimately fill North and South America and ultimately the whole world.
Yes- the church apostatized anciently. That apostacy was foretold time and time again.
Any prophesies of the modern church, the restored church, having a similar fate?
fof
It’s an argument from either silence or implication fof.
No shortcuts.
fof,
For the sake of discussion, I won’t comment (much) on the tenuous connection between biblical prophecy and Mormonism other than to say finding support for the LDS church in the Bible resembles reading your horoscope and exclaiming “How could they know that!”.
My question is, how do you know which of all the branches of Mormonism is the true branch? Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon can’t help with this question because all of the branches laid claim to them.
The prophecy about the settlement of the Rocky Mountains was only recorded years after some of the Mormons had already followed Brigham Young westward and settled in the Salt Lake Valley. In other words, this could be a forgery.
I highly recommend the Wikipedia article about the succession crisis. Things were a lot less clearcut than LDS Sunday School lessons would lead us to believe.
Amen!
Mr. Blake,
The majority of this post is for you.
I’m not much for a Capital P contest either. However as to Eliza R. Snow, she is listed in the above court ruling I posted.
I can pull up history on Sarah Pratt pretty easy, but I’m trying to keep a lower profile in regard to posted responses…
I apologize to you all about the monster court ruling post response. My bad! I thought about the link several hours two late. Thank You Kullervo for putting up with me. I’ll do better next time!
As for Eliza R. Snow I’ve an interesting Afidavit to show you….
I’ve Included excerpt of history from my own blogs, Polygamy Split the LDS Church below.
Eliza R. Snow Signed a Certificate Which Said There Was No Polygamy in the Church at Nauvoo
1,000 thousand Women Defend Joseph Smith’s Innocence
One of the reasons Eliza wanted to barely touch on the subject of polygamy at Nauvoo was because she had helped lead a thousand women in signing a petition, stating that Joseph was not guilty of polygamy as Bennett had charged (see Times and Seasons 3 [August 1, 1842]: 869). After Dr. Bennett left Nauvoo in late June 1842 and published many statements declaring that Joseph was a polygamist, Joseph made a great effort to fight against that false doctrine. Joseph himself published that he “preached … much against it” (Times and Seasons 3 [July 1, 1842]: 840).
Also, the Ladies’ Relief Society, with Emma as the president and Eliza Snow as the secretary, made a strong public stand against polygamy. The Relief Society prepared and published a certificate which declared:
We the undersigned members of the ladies’ relief society, and married females do certify and declare that we know of no system of marriage being practised in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints save the one contained in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants….
Emma Smith President…
Eliza R. Snow, Secretary.
(Times and Seasons 3 [October 1, 1842]: 940)
James here,
I’ll also say all of Joseph Smiths decendants, to this day, contest the polygamist accusations foisted upon Joseph Smith by Dr. Bennett, William Law, Brigham Young and others…. I will also say, Not one of Joseph Smith’s decendant to my knowledge today, has ever joined the Salt Lake LDS church… I should think that should say something!
I don’t know if this makes a bit of difference to any of you, perhaps you’all don’t care if there is descrepencies with the truth… For myself, I do care.
To my thinking people who play with truth, are out to control people. Controling people is about power or money. Usually both.
James Marshall
Kullervo,
The LDS Church is spoken of In Biblical Scripture.
Something to the effect in the last days God people will be called by the name of His only beggotten Son…
I’ll have to tract down Chapter and Verse….
Lisa,
I’m a member of the RLDS Church, have been all my life. Just because the main body of a church apostizes does not mean the original church does not exist….. History has proven that!
Yes they changed their name and rejected Jesus Christ’s first name. And they’ve done much more than that!
Seth R asked if a Prophet can fall! Wallace Smith was our last true Prophet! He was a direct decendant of Joseph Smith. I believe Wallace fell…
Walley Smith was the reason the RLDS Apostized. Walley payed a heavy price for what he did to the church, taking power from the stakes, and centralizing it to world headquarters… When world Headquarters starts dictating what lessons shall be taught, rather than the Holy Spirits guidance something is wrong.
The summ price was an inspired prophecy from God, given that Walley would have no sons…. Wallace Smith never had any sons, only girls. The RLDS Continued to Apostize.
Women in the Priesthood, and the latest thing I hear is Open communion. Any denomination can partake weather or not baptized into the church.
But my family left the church over 20 years ago. We live in the woods. We are RLDS and will be to the day we die.
Remarkable I heard a story about 80% of the COC Membership defected to the Restoration Branches when the RLDS changed it’s name… I’m not sure it’s true!
Currently the Restoration Branches is in a court battle for the original name RLDS…. I hope all goes well…..
It’s impossible to know with absolutel certainty whether Joseph had sex with his wives, but there’s plenty of reason to believe he did.
Eliza R. Snow wrote in her autobiography that she was “sealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for time and eternity, in accordance with the Celestial Law of Marriage which God has revealed.” Not only does that flatly contradict the statement that you mentioned, but the word “time” functioned as code for an earthly marriage (i.e. a sexual one). This is especially important in the context of the LDS/RLDS conflict at the time.
Faithful [LDS] Mormon Melissa Lott (Smith Willes) testified that she had been Joseph’s wife “in very deed.” (Affidavit of Melissa Willes, 3 Aug. 1893, Temple Lot case, 98, 105; Foster, Religion and Sexuality, 156.)
In a court affidavit, faithful [LDS] Mormon Joseph Noble wrote that Joseph told him he had spent the night with Louisa Beaman. (Temple Lot Case, 427)
Emily D. Partridge (Smith Young) said she “roomed” with Joseph the night following her marriage to him and said that she had “carnal intercourse” with him. (Temple Lot case, 364, 367, 384; see Foster, Religion and Sexuality, 15.)
Eleven other women swore affidavits that they were the carnal wives of Joseph Smith.
Then apparently there’s a letter in Joseph’s hand to Sarah Ann Whitney, one of Joseph’s wives: “… the only thing to be careful of; is to find out when Emma comes then you cannot be safe, but when she is not here, there is the most perfect safty. … Only be careful to escape observation, as much as possible, I know it is a heroick undertakeing; but so much the greater friendship, and the more Joy, when I see you I will tell you all my plans, I cannot write them on paper, burn this letter as soon as you read it; keep all locked up in your breasts, my life depends upon it. … I close my letter, I think Emma wont come tonight if she dont, dont fail to come to night, I subscribe myself your most obedient, and affectionate, companion, and friend. Joseph Smith.”
(I got this information from Lavendar Newswire.)
In any case, if you want, you can cling to any evidence that allows you to preserve your current beliefs instead of trying to take an objective view of the ambiguous evidence. We call that confirmation bias.
For whatever it’s worth (not much in my view), at least one descendant of Joseph Smith has joined the LDS church: Gracia Jones, the great-great granddaughter of Joseph Smith. She’s been treated like a trophy ever since. One of the LDS missionaries who taught her, the late James Waldron, happened to be my bishop when I was a teenager.
It’s interesting to learn that the Community of Christ also has its share of fundamentalists. I learn something new every day.
James,
You are a true RLDS. My hat’s off to you.
I don’t think the 80% figure is accurate. I read it was more like 25-30% Still, it’s hard to say. My sister attends a Restoration Branch. She lives in Independence, Missouri. My great great grandparents joined the Church in 1874. They are buried in RLDS Mound Grove Cemetary along with my great grandmother and my Aunt, only a few yards away from the grave of Joseph Smith III. My great grandfather was one of the volunteers who helped build the Stone Church. Yeah, I hope it goes well too, 🙂 the CoC doesn’t have any right to the name anyway, after they abandoned it the way they did.
My father grew up in a mixed household, stepmother and children were LDS, his Dad and siblings were RLDS. Dad had a really mellow attitude toward the LDS, not like most of the people in the congregation I grew up in. He always treated the LDS missionaries with great respect, and never spoke badly of the LDS church–no doubt because his much beloved stepbrother was LDS. He was closer to Uncle Donald than he was to his own full brothers.
Hey Kullervo, Rick Hurd may be gone, but how excited are you that this comment thread is aspiring to the same level of cool?!
And James, if you’re going to argue that it’s possible for the original church to exist even though the main body of that church has apostatized, I think you’re dramatically undercutting the claim that a total apostasy took place in the first place.
Holy shit, you’re right. This is awesome. I’m going to have to write a lot of posts about things I do not care about now just to bait him into coming back over and over again.
And here I was, thinking about shutting the comments down on this thread because it annoyed me (the only reasons I did not were 1, Jonathan Blake seemed to be having a good time, and I like Jonathan Blake; and 2, this thread keeps getting my blog a lot of hits, and I like getting hits.
But I didn’t realize I had my very own Rick Hurd until you pointed it out. I can be so dense sometimes. Like back when I saw Rambo 4 and did not really like it until my brother pointed out that it was just exactly like a R. E. Howard story (i.e., Rambo = Conan). now it is one of my favorite movies ever.
I vote for attacking Joseph Strang to ensure ultimate immortality on this post.
I wish I could have introduced you to all the guys I used to work with in the Senate. There was a *lengthy* discussion over the course of a week when the newest Rambo came out. You all could have just soaked up your manly cinematic tastes together.
Whitney–please don’t encourage a love of Rambo in Kullervo! lol!
HA. Sorry, that was a rookie error by my unmarried self :).
I watched Rambo last year at Annual Training with my infantry unit. Four times. We had plenty of testosterone on hand.
TOO much!
Don’t get me started about King Strang! 😉
Thanks for the latitude, Kullervo. If it ever gets tiresome, just tell me.
Mister Blake,
In response to you posted information about Joseph Smith’s plural wives, I’ve a question?
Are you calling Joseph Smith a liar, the Book of Mormon a fraudulent work, and God a liar?
What are you saying?
P.S. I’ve no intent towards rudeness, but I must ask you the question?
For the record, I currently believe that Joseph Smith lied about a few things, and I do not think that God is a liar.
You seem to think that Smith was infallible, James. I think even Joseph himself recognized that he was merely human, and humans have a pretty consistent track record of messing up, even when on a mission from God.
This thread makes me so happy!!!!!
Carry on, everyone.
Lisa,
Yes I’m a true RLDS and thanks for the complement!
My father was a priest in the church, he was a very charismatic leadership type. He taught David ( my younger brother ) and I, one should only preach and teach by direction of the Holy Spirit or you don’t teach AT ALL!
He gave us very infactic instruction as to the penalties priesthood face who practise priestcraft. I.E. ( Priesthood who do not allow themselves to be and oracle of the Living God )… That those priesthood who will not be God’s mouthpiece upon earth for Jesus Christ, bring false whitness against the Lord and His work…. Which is the same thing as not teaching/preaching by the Holy Spirit.
Said another way, You teach when the Lord directs, only saying the words He directs you to say, when He directs you to say them……. Othewise we keepa our biga mouths shut.
This was the raising I was giving… And the my parents taught us how the Lord taught them each to hear His voice, then they both turned us 5 kids loose and said, OK, it’s between you and God. Go figure it out for yourself! Yes they were there for support, at least mom was. Dad died when I was twelve. We kids were all very young when He passed…
Since I was 12, Jesus Christ was my father in a very real way… Those of you who have been stripped of a parent, in undo season, like myself, may feel grief the rest of your life.
But if you let Jesus raise you up, there are many compensations for the loss….
You can call us fundelmentalist I suppose, learning to hear the voice of and follow the Holy Spirit is a fundamental lesson each person needs to learn. Else We’ll will be quickly decieved especially by men… I say that because most RLDS Priesthood I’ve ever seen, LDS included, don’t teach like that. I realize that’s a very broad generality! So perhaps I modulate my tone and just settle for ( Many Priesthood ).
Not long ago, in refferance to the polygamy question, an LDS Member informed me the Holy Spirit only confirmed truth when having to do with scripture…….
But not in matters of history, schooling or if Joseph Smith was a polygamist ect…
I find this idea appallingly wrong! Bibllical says, ( Through Christ, all things are possible )…
I’m here to bear witness the idea is incorrect…. Jesus Christ is the Spirit of Truth… And if something is true, He affirms it. And if something is not, it is my experiance He keeps His mouth shut… And waits for us schmucks to come and ask Him for the truth. And until we do, Christ let’s the Author of confussion drive us to distraction and division…. Allowing the servants of the Adversary to lead us astray.
I bear personal testimony that God has taught me everything I know to be true. Teaching me about Him, to teaching me about nailing horseshoe nails into horses foot correctly without injury, to building a successful horse training program which won me championships and acclaim! Jesus Christ’s hand was in all of it! He cares that much…… If men will care as much in return to ask for His help, being ready and willing to do His will perpetually…
It is my personal opinion, those who declare Joseph Smith a Prophet, while defending the claim he was a polygamist, make a mockery of the gospel… A Prophet cannot sin against the Most High God, and give Living revelation. It’s a spiritual impossibility! Sorry Evil and God don’t Mix! Evil does not work with good….
Those who would claim so, teach heresy against The Book of Mormon and Bible as well as LDS and RLDS Doctrine and Covenants….
For the Book of Mormon reveals to you all if Joseph Smith could have been polygamist and prophet!
As for speaking out against the LDS Church? Hmmmm many of the LDS members I respect…. The Church Hierarchy I despise… Why?
I once heard Hail To The Chief sung in a LDS Stake in Springfield Missiouri…. Only Hail To the Chief weren’t what the words sung…. Instead the people pleadged themselves to obey the Prophets and Apostles…..
No where in Old or New Testament, Book of Mormon or Doctrine and Covenants, have I heard it said you are to obey the Prophets or Apostles… Only obey God the Most High and His Only Begotten Son.
There was no mention of obeying Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit or God…. I found that very distubing…..
Yes I’m involved with the JCRB Restoration Branch Movement… For those curious, yes it’s the real deal.
Via Con Dios
Priest
Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ
James Marshall
Whitney,
So tell me what did Joseph Smith lie about, versus what did He tell the truth about?
No I have never claim Joseph Smith was unfallible. In an earlier posted response I said quite the oposite…
Yes you’re absolutely right. Human beings screw up! Fact of life. Especially when on a mission from God….
So tell me what did Joseph lie about?
Whitney what I’m asking is how do you reconcile what you’re saying with this Statement from your own LDS History of the Church..
Excerpt from my blog
Joseph Smith’s Personal Clerks Betrayed Him
Most of the “good, faithful, and efficient clerks” were not good and faithful to Joseph. Some were polygamists themselves, and they rewrote Joseph’s history under Brigham’s direction to make it appear that Joseph was the author of polygamy.
The Mormon Church has published, “Moreover, since the death of the Prophet Joseph, the history has been carefully revised under the strict inspection of President Brigham Young, and approved by him” (LDS History of the Church 1:v–vi).
How do yo reconcile this History?
Whitney,
Darned if I missed what you said Earlier this evening,
Nope I never claimed the LDS Church totally apostized!
Where did you get that from???
Boy I must have had you going……
You guys still believe in the Book of Mormon… The Book is true and best to my knowledge has not been changed by your Church. So best to my knowledge theres still hope for us all!
I’m not arguing about apostates…. I’m not calling anyone evil or bad here…. I’m working at making a point no ones though of yet….
Because if you had, you couldn’t say Joseph Smith’s a liar?
Are you calling Joseph Smith a liar, the Book of Mormon a fraudulent work, and God a liar?
That’s a complex question. I’ll try to keep the answer short.
Yes, I believe Joseph Smith lied about quite a few things, polygamy being one, the later—increasingly grandiose—versions of his First Vision being another.
I’m of two minds regarding the Book of Mormon. Either it was a fraud, or perhaps it is an example of autowriting (which has entirely natural explanations in my opinion). On balance, I lean toward the belief that it was an outright fraud. I lean this direction largely because of the self-serving nature of the religion he created. I’m not entirely convinced, though, because sometimes Joseph really seemed sincere about his teachings.
In any case, when you use the word “God”, if you’re talking about the character described in the Bible, the guy who is supposed to answer prayers, a person who created and controls the universe, then I don’t believe in that God. So, I can’t really think he’s a liar if I don’t think he exists.
This means that I don’t believe the Book of Mormon came from God. At best, I think Joseph Smith was innocently duped by his religious experiences to believe he was a prophet of God. At worst, I think he was a religious conman. I don’t know for certain either way.
It is my personal opinion, those who declare Joseph Smith a Prophet, while defending the claim he was a polygamist, make a mockery of the gospel…
Was Abraham a prophet?
I once heard Hail To The Chief sung in a LDS Stake in Springfield Missiouri…. Only Hail To the Chief weren’t what the words sung…
Stranger things have happened, but is there any chance that you heard them singing Praise to the Man, the Man in this case being Joseph Smith?
I agree with you that the emphasis on obeying the apostles and prophets utterly is disturbing. It seems to be a later innovation in the LDS church. Even Brigham Young warned against following him (or any other church leader) blindly. Now the LDS church unsubtly indoctrinates its children to “Follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet…”.
Hi James,
I’m Methodist. Hopefully that clears a few things up in the discussion.
I am currently reading the Book of Mormon, and like many who are not a member of any church laying claim to the Book of Mormon, I actually do see nuggets of truth in its words, and I am enjoying the discussions I get to have with my LDS friend as we go over each book.
However, I simply don’t have a testimony that tells me to leave my life as a protestant and pursue something based on the Book of Mormon. I certainly respect the beliefs of those who do have a testimony of the Book’s truthfulness, and those who have a testimony of why they’re in the church they’re in. But I do have faith in God, and while nobody would classify me as a fundamentalist, I still experience Him and see Him working in my life every day. So I have a testimony there.
My point on apostasy was to highlight that I’ve always understood that the Book of Mormon came down to us because the world was in total apostasy. So whatever your feelings on the state of the LDS church, I was applying your statement regarding the body falling away but the faithful still remaining to that idea. Doesn’t that undercut the whole argument?
If you really want to get into what I think constituted a JS lie…I will echo Jonathan in pointing to changing descriptions of the First Vision and the polygamy thing. I know that polygamy is a non-starter with you, but I think JS did it, and I think a few non-truthful statements came out of it. But in all honesty, even if I got on board with JS, I still have a lot of trouble with Mr. Brigham. And I know you’ll suggest I take a look at your side of things, where Young isn’t an issue, but in the end, I still don’t have a testimony to work from, so no thank you.
Katie, good to see you :).
Whitney, I like that you’re assumed to be Mormon. It’s as delightful as when Kullervo is assumed Ev (or Mormon) on Tim’s. 😀
James Marshall,
I can’t see why you are fighting this battle. How can you argue that Joseph was not a polygamist when we have documentary evidence that Jesus Was A Polygamist?
Was it too good for Joseph to be something that Jesus was?
Its a logical certainty that if Jesus was a polygamist, Joseph must have been one.
Think on that.
Katy – Hehe, I am equally delighted. Except that cute Mormon boys tend to make the same mistake, and that gets a bit complicated :).
And Jared….hahahahahaha. You’re batting a thousand with your posts this weekend.
Thanks Whitney, I am glad you are enjoying them!
Jared, 10 out of 10 for that comment. Maybe even 11 out of 10. Excellent point. Just excellent.
Jared, I officially love you. When polyandry becomes acceptable, wanna be husband number 2? (No diapers! I save those just for Kullervo…)
Great. We’re turning into some sort of weird online dating service…
Very weird. . . I think we might be taking the polygyny think a bit far. I can see how it could get a little out of hand, as it probably did with Joseph Smith.
But, wait, I thought you all were saving the #2 spouse spot for Jesus?
I am definitely not going to step on His toes. . .
(I actually have more fear of my wife’s wrath at the proposition than I am Jesus’, but that is probably what makes me a heretic.)
Speaking of online dating services, I totally am trying to set Whitney up with someone else in the Bloggernacle, though I think I sort of suck at this Emma stuff.
I have also landed a hot date with Katie Langston in Seattle for June 19. We might even get to share a bed afterward. Bow chicka wow wow…
I can’t wait until Kullervo sees what we’ve done to his blog when he gets back from Army land.
And Jack, I appreciate you :).
Where did Mr. Marshall go?
Sooooo, Whitney and Jack…who’s the love interest?
In the spirit of Mr. Marshall, and to help put the conversation back on track (because I’m very good at keeping conversations on track), I’ll just say this:
JOSEPH SMITH WAS NEVER A POLYGAMIST AND ANYONE WHO SAYS OTHERWISE IS A DIRTY LYING LIAR WHO LIES!
Sooooo, Whitney and Jack…who’s the love interest?
I’ll tell you on Facebook.
And yeah, of course Joseph Smith wasn’t a polygamist. I mean, his wife went to her grave denying it, and where is the DNA evidence for children from other women???
And while we are at it, who is the REAL mother of Trig Palin? You may fool the rest of the country, Sarah, but Andrew Sullivan is too smart for you.
Dear Jared,
You win the internet.
Love,
SPC Kullervo, MDARNG
Jonathan Blake,
Well at least you’re honest!
Let me ask you a question? Have you ever studied biblical prophecy? Why don’t you read Isaiah chapters 28-29 and 30! When you find the fall of the Twin Towers prophecied in Isaiah 30 let me know. Perhaps it will help with the God thing….
And now some actually real history….
You say Joseph Smith lied about a few things? That the book of Mormon may be fraudulent? Or supposedly autowritten? Yikes what’s that!!!???
Seriously Jonathan, ( not meaning to patranize ) if Joseph Smith lied about the Book of Mormon, then explain Isaiah 29:10-24 prophecy being fulfilled?
The greening of Lebanon began in 1842 with the rains returning after nearly 2000 years of drought.
Isaiah 29 gives the greening of Lebanon as the date for the coming forth of a sealed book. A book to be brought forth by an unlearned man, who claimed he had taken it from the earth, ( Psalms 85 ) and was commanded to translate it.
Joseph Smith claimed the Book of Mormons purpose was to restore the House of Israel to It’s former covenant knowledge. Many people doubt Joseph Smiths claim. Yet God in Daniel 9: 24-27/ Daneil chpt 12 end of 12 tells Daniel the Prophet to seal up the Book and God would bring this Book for in the last days.
Acts chapter 3 speaks of the restitution of all things in the last days by a prophet. Book of John the Apostle prophecies God will raise up a prophet, in referance to Moses prophecy of a Prophet whom men should listen to in all things… This Prophet is not Jesus Christ, John the Apostle says so.
Getting back to the main point though. Joseph could have been a liar, but if He was, then Lebanon would not have turned green. Man cannot make God change the earth.
So tell me how Joseph Smith fraudulently wrote a work, that controls the hand of God?
Men can defraud other men, but only a true prophet has God’s support. And God only supports those who do not lie!
Am I correct?
I mean where in scripture did God tell man it’s OK to lie?
James Marshall
Jared C,
Documented evidence according to whom? According to you? According to parties who’s soul interest is to taint the name of Joseph Smith so they can justify their own sins?
Honestly Jared, I’m asking these hard questions because they need asked! Yes I’m being pushy…..
Joseph Smith was either a prophet or a liar.
If Joseph Smith was a prophet then it’s scripturally and spiritually impossible for him to be a liar…. Which means Jospeph Smith was made a scape goat by the Utah LDS Church, as determined by U.S. courts of law.
On the other hand, if Jospeh Smith was a liar, then the Book of Mormon is fraudulent. Or at least it’s testimony has been badly damaged and God has been made a liar.
THE BOOK OF ALMA
THE SON OF ALMA
CHAPTER 7
21 And he doth not dwell in unholy temples; neither can filthiness or anything which is unclean be received into the kingdom of God; therefore I say unto you the time shall come, yea, and it shall be at the last day, that he who is filthy shall remain in his filthiness.
Mosiah 2: 37.
37 I say unto you, that the man that doeth this, the same cometh out in open rebellion against God; therefore he listeth to obey the evil spirit, and becometh an enemy to all righteousness; therefore, the Lord has no place in him, for he dwelleth not in unholy temples.
1 Cor. 3: 17 (16-17).
17 If any man adefile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is bholy, which temple ye are.
1 Cor. 6: 19.
19 What? know ye not that your abody is the btemple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your cown?
Alma 34: 36.
36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.
Many a Salt Lake Mormon student of history and priesthood member have declared Joseph Smith a liar. By doing so they call God a liar…
But God said in Mosiah 2:37 He would have not place in a man who sins against Him, especially by a man defiling his body, God’s temple.
What most all latter Day Saints miss, is Joseph Smith is giving Heaven sent Revelation from God. The D&C provides the ample evidenses…. If God was truly using Joseph Smith, speaking to us through Joseph Smith, then Smith could not have been practicing Polygamy in Secret. Because otherwise, according to the Book of Mormon, Bible and D&C God dwelleth not in Unholy temples… And God would have had to dwell in Joseph’s body, in order to give revelation through him….
Joseph Smith was a prophet, but also He was just a man. But a good and Holy man. He went to his death denying ever having commited polygamy. His wife Emma Hale Smith also went to hear death bed in defense of her husbands innocense. To this day the Reorganized Church, who many would say does not exist, can furnish the ample evidense Smith was innocent of all polygamous charges.
Further more, we can prove legally, by Utah LDS Church records, Utah Church publications, and publications of the orignal LDS Church Joseph Smith started, that Brigham Young and others were responsible for the polygamy doctrine after Joseph Smith’s death.
Joseph Smith never taught polygamy. At least according to every word he publically spoke.
The evidenses supporting Joseph Smith’s “secret polygamous practices”, are based on hearsay! Not hard facts or evidenses. Name one hard piece of evidense supporting the polygamist camp claims? I mean really?
Show me a letter in Joseph Smith’s handwritting, or scripture doctrinal text supporting he personally promote polygamy… You cannot… Yes there’s letters written, but let’s compare those letters to other letter known for a fact to have been written by Smith. They will be proven forgeries.
Now name one thing backing Joseph Smith’s claim of Innocence? There are two pieces of hard core evidense from Smith backing what He thought? If he wrote the Book of Mormon by his own imagination, then Smith obviously despised polygamy. If Smith translated the Book of Mormon by the Power of God, then God and Smith were in agreement, Word of Christ ” two cannot walk together lest they be agreed”! Evidently if the Book of Mormon is God’s gift to man through Joseph Smith, then God and Joseph Smith must have been agreed upon the issues of polygamy… And it matters not what the scholars say. They lie or have been duped themselves.
And then there is the D&C. The Second evidense Smith hated polygamy..,…. If you read the pages of the LDS D&C and study your church history, you will find section 111 was removed which proclaimed marriage was between one man and one woman.
1835 LDS Marriage Ceremony
On August 18, 1835, a conference of the Church considered the form of marriage ceremony to be used in the Church and adopted the following covenant, which is used in every marriage ceremony in this Church to the present day: “You both mutually agree to be each other’s companion, husband and wife, observing the legal rights belonging to this condition; that is, keeping yourselves wholly for each other, and from all others, during your lives?” (Doctrine and Covenants 111:2b).
The same section which includes this marriage covenant incorporates also this declaration of belief from the Church: “We declare that we believe that one man should have one wife; and one woman but one husband” (Doctrine and Covenants 111:4b. This section was removed from the Utah edition in 1876, and the “revelation 132” on polygamy substituted).
The Book of Mormon, which was translated by Joseph Smith, calls polygamy an abomination and states the rule that one man shall have one wife, “and concubines he shall have none” (Jacob 2:36).
Futher Joseph Smith never sired polygamist children, there has never been to this day DNA evidense this is so, though many have claimed to be decendant of Smith. While many of famous Mormon polygamist has been indeed proven by DNA to have had many many wives.
You say many scholars have concluded Smith a polygamist? I ask you? Who do you listen to? Men? Or God? Men tell you how to think, what to believe, how to dress, when to shave and with what instument? Men tell you what truck you want, and how much mony you need to make, so they can be wealthy?
But when have you actually asked God or studied Holy Scripture on the matter of Joseph Smith’s polygamy?
Know you know Isaiah 29 warns us of Conspiracy of men during the during the time the Book of Mormon is to come forth? Men who would say ” who seeth us, who knoweth us? Will the turning of the work upside down not be esteemed as the potters clay?”
The scholars can say what they want. The Utah based LDS Church also can say what they will. But if you truly examine the history for yourself, not the history some man tells you to examine, but you dig and do the dirty work of finding the truth, you will find a huge lie had been perpetrated upon the Latter Day Saint people.
Joseph either was a prophet, or he wasn’t. The LDS Church He started was either of God or it isn’t…. The Book of Mormon was of God, or it was written by the imagination of a silly unschooled redneck country boy who never hardly been outside the village, let alone out of America.
You decide, and when you come to the answer, then ask youself this question? It the original LDS Church the Salt Lake Church of today like Salt Lake Utah claims, or not?
Jame Marshall
“If Joseph Smith was a prophet then it’s scripturally and spiritually impossible for him to be a liar”
Who made up that rule?
Are you saying he never even told a little fib to Emma – like whether he snitched an extra dumpling from the pot?
Whitney,
I don’t blame you! Many protestant Christians with any amount of Biblical schooling look at the Salt Lake story, shake their heads and say, ” I cannot see how Joseph Smith could be Prophet and sinner”…. The truth is he wasn’t. He could not have been both.
Read my post to Jared C.
Yes you’re correct, the world was in apostacie…. And still is.
You’ve got to understand something. I’ve 36 years of study and deep thought about this matter. Being persecuted as I’ve been by most “Christian” mankind because a lie told by brother Latter Day Saint’s will really motivate a soul to determine what the truth actually was, and weather he should continue to believe or not!
As for recieving a testimony, you won’t get one, unless you’re willing to accept the responsibility of it being true.
This may include telling the whole world of it’s truth. Also being lied about, called a Mormon, be despised by biggots
and be forced to like Peter, into a decision to cut and run denying Jesus Christ or stand ye and deliver.
I chose stand ye and deliver. But only after years of study, soul searching ect…. And yes all my study came after I had my testimony…. But then I knew from the time I was a young boy the Book of Mormon was the real deal. I could sense it!
Remember Jesus Christ was called satan by the Pharasee.
He was crucifed by Jews who were his own people and keepers of the Holy Law.
And when He arose from the dead, the Jews lied about him saying that He really hadn’t risen from the dead? Which is why almost all Jews today don’t believe Jesus has come yet!
This is the same type and pattern. Type and pattern of the LDS/RLDS Church. You decide who’s the good guy/bad guys….. Ooooofff! Such words I’ve used! Boy I’m going to get flamed for that one!!! What the hey!
If you want to know the truth of a matter, watch the people of wealth and power. Satan controls them. Why? Because they influence the peoples thinking into error and biggotry!
Christ’s true church will always be lied about, tortured, burned at the stake, crucified and lied about…
The World wouldn’t want Christ’s true church getting up to much head of steam, why people might start healing the sick, feeding the poor, visiting and administering relief to those in need, while breaking the bands and yokes of those enslaved…. As the Book of Mormon commands us too.
You might also find interesting, either Joseph Smith or God, wrote in 3 Nephi, Jesus Christ speaking, ” Christ’s Church will be called after His name”! Well you’d think Joseph Smith just set up the LDS Church as Christ’s true church! NOpe!!!
Christ, or Joseph whomever you prefer wrote further saying, ” and any who do not do after me ( Christ ) ( feed the hunger heal the sick ect. ) are not of Me ( Christ ) and therefore are not of my Church, even if they are called after My name ( Church of Jesus Christ )”
So Whitney, Joseph Smith may have been a fraud, but if he was, he was a fraud with a fair concience…. Because he wrote plainly against any church who does not do as Christ did, which was the will of the Father. Even if that church has the words LDS in it’s abriviations….
James Marshall
P.S. The Book of Mormon is true.
I have a really badly done blog at this time with some really interesting evidenses. Not one of which comes from BYU or the Mormon Church… Yes Joseph Smith told the truth!
Seth R.
God made the rule….. Anyone who doesn’t read before responding should get glasses
Sorry Seth, Bible and Book of Mormon and D&C tell you so!
Not me!
James Marshall
Seth R.
I don’t fib on my wife! How about you???
She knows me to wells for one, and also I love her to much to lie!
Besides when I was a young child I tried the lying thing. It gets you into more trouble than it’s worth! Besides, I’m a terrible liar!
James Marshall
You’re sounding rather pompous and arrogant right now James.
Just a heads-up.
And it doesn’t say ANYWHERE in the Bible or other scripture that prophets don’t lie at all.
James Marshall,
I read your comments in detail, thrice. and I still am flabbergasted that you are arguing against such a clear case.
If you are going to refuse the documentary evidence I think these facts (also) prove conclusively that Joseph was both prophet and accomplished polygamist:
1. First, by all accounts, Joseph Smith, had more game than Milton Bradley, He was charismatic, relatively good looking, and SPOKE WITH GOD. He must have been unbelievably irresistible to any female with the gift of the holy ghost.
2. He was constantly surrounded by females with the gift of the holy ghost.
3. Joseph was married to a woman who was willing to take him out if he was openly getting with the many prospects in front of him.
http://en.fairmormon.org/Emma_Smith_and_Brigham_Young
4. If Joseph was attempting to follow in the footsteps of Jesus, he had to get with some of these women that found him irresistible.
5. If Joseph was getting with some of these women, he had to lie about it, so as not to have his head beat in in his sleep by Emma.
6. Why in the world would Jesus care if Joseph married other women and lied about it? He himself was not always completely up front with what he was up to. He rarely told people he was the absolute master of the universe, probably for the same reason Joseph kept his secrets, so he would not have gotten strung up or stoned before he was able to complete his mission.
8. Jesus would not care in the least if Joseph was a polygamist, why would he, he was himself a polygamist!
7. Therefore, ergo, ipso facto, res ipsa loquitur. . . ” fax mentis, incendium gloria cultum,” et cetera, et cetera… Memo bis punitor delicatum! It’s all there! Black and white, clear as crystal! :
Joseph was both a prophet and a liar and a polygamist!
Check this out, research it, pray about it, but don’t question my knowledge on the subject, nor my resolve in making sure you are aware of the truth.
Better yet, just trust me on this one. You should. . . after all, I own the internet.
Seth R
Sorry! No intention of being pompous! My opologies!
Seth you may not agree, but you listen. And at least you don’t gun for people because your beliefs are theatened by an apposing Idea!
And I’ve noticed you respond to what I say! Which means weather you agree or not, ( weather I’m correct or not ) you read what I said, catching the spirit of what I said, rather than get mad and lay snares or treat me like I’m stupid….
Thank You!
As for the Bible saying a Prophet cannot lie? Hmmm…. Lets see about that! Where do prophets fit into God’s special plan? Are prophets given special lattitudeds to lie?
(Acts 10:34)
“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him.”
(Galatians 2:6)
God shows no personal favoritism to no man
(Deuteronomy 10:17)
“For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe.”
(1 Peter 1:17)
“And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work … ”
(2 Nephi 26:33 LDS)
Jesus loves all of us, and is not a respecter of persons.
LDS D&C Section 1: 35
For I am no respecter of persons, and will that all men shall know that the day speedily cometh; the hour is not yet, but is nigh at hand, when peace shall be taken from the earth, and the devil shall have power over his own dominion.
Apparrently God respects all men equally! Even Prophets!
Because even a Prophet is included under the heading “All Men”…. You savy?
Neither God nor His Prophets can lie… Else they’re not of God…
He is a God of truth and cannot lie (see Ether 3:11–12).
D&C Section 1: 31
For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;
Exodus 20:16, and Deuteronomy 5:20 forbid lying!
Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbour.
2 Nephi 9: 34
Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell.
So, I challenge you to show me in scripture where it’s OK for a Prophet to lie?
And if God’s Prophets can lie, then can you trust the Bible, Book of Mormon and D&C? I mean after all would you sleep with an ax murder? Would you do business with a liar?
Read Mathew Chapter 12….. God cannot lie, neither can Jesus Christ who is Prophet and High Priest of the His Church.
I mean after all! Satan is the ” Great Pretender” A serpent who speaks with a split tongue, ( speaking truth and lies together ) is a liar and according to all scripture one who would take away your freedom to choose for or against God…
So if God’s prophets lied, would they not be like satan? Seeking to take away our agency/ choice?
Hopefully More Humbly
James Marshall
I didn’t say lying was good. Scriptures do say it isn’t. True.
And I didn’t say that God’s word is not “true.” I agree there too.
What I said was that the Bible nowhere says that prophets are incapable of lying. That’s all.
James,
Prophets can lie. Abraham lied to Pharaoh (Genesis 12) and Abimelech (Genesis 20) by saying that Sarah was his sister. Jacob lied to Isaac, his father, in order to get his blessing (Genesis 27). Nephi lied to get the Brass Plates from the house of Laban (1 Nephi 4). And so on. Prophets lie.
Also, I can point you to some prophecies made by Mohammed that have been fulfilled, and yet I’m sure you won’t become a Muslim. Why is that?
I’ve recently been burnt trying to talk logic to people who aren’t operating on logic, so I have very little energy to address all of the points that you bring up. I would be using logic, and you would be using faith in your foregone conclusions, cherry picking evidence that suits your beliefs. Maybe I’d be up for it another day, but not today.
If you want to read a good history of Joseph Smith’s life by a reputable historian and based on the historical evidence we have—not the propaganda of the Utah church or the RLDS church—then I highly recommend Rough Stone Rolling.
Jared – res ipsa loquitur. HA.
James – We all agree that lying is bad. And we all agree that humans screw up, even prophets. So….what flaws are YOU willing to admit Joseph Smith had? Is there a reason that I have to believe Joseph Smith was as sinless as Jesus in order to take the Book of Mormon seriously? Because if that’s the case, well, I guess I can stop reading it right now.
I didn’t say Joseph Smith didn’t have a fair conscience. But lots of people have fair consciences. They still screw up.
The problem with your position is that you attack one group for relying on fraudulent historical evidence while making your claims without citing to anything more reliable. Also, the problem with your position is that you simply cannot respond in a meaningful way to Jared, because Jared speaks Finnish.
And finally, I grew up in the heart of Mormon Country, and I am fully aware of the “responsibilities” that I would need to assume if I had a testimony. Trust me, the fact that I’m even reading the Book of Mormon with as much effort and sincerity as I am is very scary to me, because I fully accept that EVERYTHING may change for me. So please, none of this “you’re not trying hard enough.” I’m trying to find the Truth just fine, and if God can reach other converts I know, He can certainly reach me.
“Also, the problem with your position is that you simply cannot respond in a meaningful way to Jared, because Jared speaks Finnish.”
That is debatable, my five-year-old would strongly disagree. Its more accurate to say that I try to speak Finnish.
Mutta, se on totta että James ei voi vastaa sopivasti.
Kona hanashi mechiyakuchiya na mon’ ni natta yo.
So there.
I don’t know what you guys are saying in Finnish and Japanese, but whatever it is, I hope it’s dirty.
Kullervo, are you aware that we’ve had a rickhurd sighting at Jessica’s blog and he left his e-mail address in case anyone wishes to contact him? *hint hint*
Well, don’t mind me. Carry on with this fascinating thread.
Not really dirty. But it is written in rude form Japanese.
Whitney, Seth R, Mr, Blake,
Listen Ladies and Gents,
I’ve posted direct quotes from LDS History, Journal of Discourses, Courts of the United States, LDS Church publications ect…
Yet you tell me I’ve not cited anything thing more reliable?
how us that?
James
Whitney,
You need to read the D&C….
The biggest flaw Joseph Smith had early on in leading the church, was He dropped the ball when coming out against certain leaders within the church who were fooling with Church doctrine and teaching.
You should find this in section 1 of your LDS D&C.
I believe that’s where it is in my RLDS version.
Joseph Smith hated calling men to account, He also according to Jesus Christ, esteemed to much the opinions of men. This caused various problems, which because Smith didn’t nip these problems in the bud early, they became run away freight trains later.
God repremanded Joseph Smith severly, also part of the problem was Joseph Smith lost 116 pages of texts… Because He disobeyed God… Givening men those texts against His commandement. Because of this, Jesus told Joseph he most likely would die, but that he would be allowed to complete the work to a certain point.
You should also find this in your D&C… I say should, because the Salt Lake Utah LDS D&C and the RLDS D&C are not the same. So I feel I’m shooting in the dark as to whats actually there in the LDS D&C!
I’ve studied the Utah D&C somewhat from online. I can say for a fact, Joseph Smith had nothing to do with some of the revelation written. The wording, grammar and text construction of certain revalation obviously do not match other parts of the LDS D&C. If you want to confirm this, grab an RLDS D&C and read them both together… It’s very revealing what you will see.
Any person who has eyes and a brain can see, either Joseph Smith, God or both are not speaking…. The cadences and rythem of the written speach are totally different. Someone else wrote those certain revelations.
I’ve been speaking with a disefected LDS fella from New Mexico. He’s Zuni and Pueblo Indian so I understand. He joined when He was 17, and now is 64 years old… He says the LDS have changed parts of the Book of Mormon.
I don’t know if he’s right or not! My RLDS sources have told me it’s about the same… So I think you’re safe there!
But I know for a fact having read parts of the LDS D&C it’s is not the same in it’s origians and you need to know it…
Which is the reason why I’ve been harping upon this Polygamy thing! Joseph Smith never started it, nor participated in it.
But there are certain men who say he did. And that’s not true….
By the way, I do give historical evidenses for what I talk about. But it seems the people whom they’re meant for, avoid them and change the subject or angle of their speech without addressing the facts I’ve mentioned?
Why is this?
Its because the facts are pretty clear to those who are willing to listen. (See my unimpeachable logic above.)
He who has ears let him hear, let all others believe that Joseph was monogamous.
What I don’t understand is why you would think that his promiscuity was a bad thing.
James,
I read all the evidence you cited, many times, cross referenced them with all other available evidence, shepardized, and still you have no case.
What I would like to see is one piece of evidence (or better yet, pages and pages of quotes) that casts any doubt on the 7 propositions I listed above that definitively prove Joseph a polygamist.
James,
I’ve been busy today, and I have stuff to do tonight, so I don’t have time to write back right now. But I would just like to state again, for the record, that I’m not Mormon. I’m just barely reading through the Book of Mormon. I don’t own the D&C, nor would I consider the D&C authoritative on much. But I’ll do some re-reading of things and get back to you.
Jared C and Jonathan,
Don’t sweat it, I’m going to adress what both of you’ve said.
I’m just taking my time….
Jared,
You need to start listing those cross refferances so I know what you talking about?
Whitney,
I understand you’re not a Mormon! I’m not either! I’m sure that sounds strange to you. Many of the early Restoration Church leaders also winced at being called Mormons. Why?
Because in the Book of Mormon 3thrd Nephi, Christ says His Church shall be called after His name, Jesus Christ.
The Book of Mormon also warns people not to take upon themselves the name of a church who is named after a man. For Instance Luther and the Lutherin Church, Or John the Baptist, the Baptist Church ect.
To be called Mormon means Mormon, who was commanded by God to abridge the Nephite records, would have had to start a church, which he didn’t, and thus it suggests all who are called Mormons worship in the church of Mormon, rather than the Church of Jesus Christ.
I’ll bet you Salt Lake Saints feel the same way…
Most people of the Reorganized Church wince at the thought of being considered Mormon as in Utah LDS. We are very conservitive, and we only teach what Joseph Smith originally taught. No extras! That is excepting for the COC…. But they don’t count! They sold out!
For instance the Pearl of Great Price and the Book of Abraham was never voted to be used as scripture at any church conferance during Joseph Smith’s life time. Nor have they in the history of the RLDS Church. They were later adopted by the Utah Church as doctrine after 1844. We only believe in the Bible, Book of Mormon and the D&C. Period!
We use our bible as much as we do our Book of Mormon. In my case more so.
The word Mormon in the Book of Mormon means Restoration of the Covenant. Not LDS Salt Lake Church or RLDS Church… I didn’t know if you were aware of that?
2500 people were baptised in the waters of the river Mormon. For the people in the Book of Mormon, the word Mormon means to repent, be baptised, come unto Christ, and each begin their covenant walk with God.
Not as the word Mormon has been construed to mean today.
I’ve been thinking hard trying to refine my thoughts. I’ve realized I’m communicating my objections as to why I’m sure Joseph was never a polygamist. But I never really said why.
Joseph Smith could not have been a polygamist and be used by God as a spiritually active prophet.
What do I mean by that?
Remember in the Bible when the Jews desecrated the Temple? Or the times when Idols to other Gods were raised up in front of the Ark of the Covenant? Remember the asharoff poles and How God threw them over in His temple? God did things to let people know He was upset with them for defiling His Physical Temple. His place of residence.
At one time, He nearly destroyed the whole house of Israel for Idol worship. Luckly Moses saved us!
Yes I’m of Jewish decent, a decendant of Ephraim and Manaseeh…. As are many latter day saints…
My point is after Christ was crucified, men and women became living temples of the living God. Not some building! But our very bodies….
God cannot destroy us just because we disobey His Spirit or break His laws. That would constitute obeidiance by force. God cannot interfer with our free will. But what He can do, and I’ve personally experianced this, He can take His Spirit out from within us. He can withdraw from us, leaving us feeling powerless, unprotected and empty inside. Why?
Because we by our actions defiled our bodies and spirit, which Christ plainly tell us is His temple. His temple in which we must keep holy and sactified only to God…
For example, I’ve a temper! Since the day I was born I had hot Scottish Blood in me. I also possed very little control of my temper as a boy. Even today I am predisposed to loose my cool…. Part of my repentance is learning to say everything is OK. Or in other words, I’m learning to trust God and not sweat the details. Especially having to do with other people! Some days are harder than others as you well know!
But the other day, I didn’t do so well! I’m ashamed to say, I was tired, irritated, and my wife came up to me asking me a question. Irritated, I replied with a bad attitude and raised voice. Bang!!! The Holy Spirit left me. I felt weak, helpless, empty, in grief and knowing I had blown it with my wife. But not just with my wife, but I had offended Jesus Christ!!!
I knew I blew it! Not because my wife was looking at me hurt, which she was, but because Jesus Christ lowered the spiritual boom on James Brian Marshall. He chastised me immediately for hurting the woman He sent me to marry… You see, Jesus told me in an audible voice, Amber was the women I would marry. So you see, when Brian raised his voice at his wife, what Brian was really doing, was grieving the Holy Spirit, complaining to God And Christ’s immediate response was to take my spiritual power away from me as well as my spiritual authority as a member of His Priesthood…. By doing this, He calls me to awareness and repentance. Should I not repent, I will be permanently cut off!
I can say living without the Holy Spirit in my life is Hell on earth! It’s miserable.
We cannot desecrate our body, God’s temple in God’s eyes, and then expect God to use us as a prophet or servant… Polygamy would be such a desecration! In my own eyes, using women in such a way is tantamount to rape… In my mind though perhaps not in God’s, plural wifeism is worse than yelling at my wife. Both however is a type of rape.
Why I say Joseph Smith was not a polygamist, is simple at least to me….
Based upon my experiance, a prophet who continues to give revelation from God, cannot at the same time be committing sin in secret. He would be desecrating God’s temple, and like myself, God would leave his sorry butt sitting in the middle of the road!
For God to continue to using and Unrepentant prophet would make Him a liar. A prophet who lies, damages His of whitness of Jesus Christ.
Further More,
Analize any prophet in the Bible though whom God is using as His mouth piece? Examine the voice speaking through that prophets mouth in the text. Notice how the voice in the text sounds, again notice the cadences and rthyms… God’s voice in text on paper has a certain rthym. Isaiah is a good prophet to read… But read Micah Amos and others…..
I submit to you the voice in the Biblical text is the same voice in much of the LDS D&C…. There are ear marks and tells in the text that will show you, if you’re careful to look, that Jesus Christ, the same Christ in the Bible who is speaking, speaks through many parts of the LDS D&C.
Now if that same voice in the Bible text is the same voice in the D&C Text, then is it not logical to assume God is speaking through Joseph Smith?
And If God is speaking through Joseph Smith, is it not logical to believe the Holy Spirit is dweling within Joseph Smith?
And if the Holy Spirit is dwelling within Joseph Smith, would it not be logical to assume Joseph Smith is a repentant, dicipline holy prophet, who works daily to keep his body and spirit sactified to keep His temple of the living God holy?
Yes I know this is not conclusive evidense, and some reading this, will say I’m smoke and mirrors in what I say.
But remember the Asharoff Poles and Idols in Gods ancient temple? How almost as soon as they were errect, God knocked them over? God didn’t wait ten years or even 10 days. God made His point to His priesthood and people immediately!
My point is Joseph Smith was giving D&C revelation up until just a month or two before He died. And the voice in the D&C written text is the same! It never changed!
Excepting where Salt Lake Utah replaced certain revelation post 1844….
Therefor to my wierd and zainy brain, God and Joseph Smith must have been agreed, because God would have to dwell in Joseph Smith in power to give true heaven sent revelation…
So how do we reconcile the fact when God’s temple is desecrated, He knocks over the Idols, purges or destroys His temple…. Yet Joseph Smith whom the LDS church claims started polygamoud practise early in LDS Church history, continued to give revelation, while supposedly sinnng against God right up till the time of his death?
You see it doesn’t add up. Joseph Smith was either telling the truth, and innocent of polygamy, or Joseph Smith was a fraud and we are all decieved….
My friendly opposition on this blog might imply I’m mistaken about my facts. However I get to live with the stigma the Utah LDS Church created. That stigma though inconvieniant for myself, has also driven me to find the truth of the matter. You see, I could not believe something that is false. Integretie is everything!
The truth is Joseph Smith was not a liar. Brigham Young was. Emma Smith told the truth about Joseph Smith. Brigham Young Did not. Worse, Young lied about Emma lying! Hmmmm……….. Sound like a real humdinger of a story!!!
Stay tuned everybody!
I’ve more to come!
You see it doesn’t add up. Joseph Smith was either telling the truth, and innocent of polygamy, or Joseph Smith was a fraud and we are all decieved
Well, that dilemma is easily solved. Joseph Smith was a fraud and you’re all deceived.
I asked my BIL in Japan what you said, Seth. He says your Japanese was “obviously written by someone who has only studied [it] from a textbook.” You must be rusty.
Jared, I ran yours through an online Finnish to English translator and this is what it said:
Only, it is TRUE että James no butter but right.
Makes perfect sense.
Bridget,
Hmmmmmmmmmm perhaps you’re right! I could be decieved!
Are you being silly or serious?
You can’t learn what I wrote from a textbook Jack.
It’s slang Japanese – with local southern dialect thrown in.
What does BIL do in Japan anyway?
James ~ Are you being silly or serious?
Yes.
Bridget Whoa Girl!
LOL! Well!???
Yes to silly, to serious or yes to both?
I’m pretty literal you know. Comes from the Jewish Hebrew side of the family!
James, the exclamation points have to go! Reading them is making it hard to take anything that you say seriously! Seriously!
Jared C,
“What I don’t understand is why you would think that his promiscuity was a bad thing.”
Sorry Jared but I’m going to play dirty pool with you!
You don’t understand what’s wrong with being unfaithful to your wife?
Hmmmmmmmm Do you need counseling?
Katyjane
So sorry I shall work on it!
I happen to be a very passionate fella, but I never claimed to be a writer!
I shall repent as best I’m able!
James ~ Comes from the Jewish Hebrew side of the family!
אתה מדבר עברית? למדתי עברית מודרנית לשנתיים באוניברסיטת בריגהם יאנג.י
I was being serious but saying it in a rather silly way; I’m an evangelical Christian and I don’t have much problem with concluding that JS was a fraud.
Am I reading correctly that you’re RLDS and that you deny that JS practiced polygamy? I realize that’s been the de facto position of your church for over a century, but I can’t say I find it very tenable. I can’t think of a single modern-day professional historian who continues to deny it; even non-LDS historians who don’t have a dog in that fight like Jan Shipps and Lawrence Foster and RLDS historians like Robert B. Flanders have accepted that JS practiced polygamy.
I also think you do polygamy a disservice by equating it with rape. Some people (women included) choose for themselves to live in polygamous marriages and are happy with it. Rape is all about not having a choice. Huge difference.
James
Sorry Jared but I’m going to play dirty pool with you!
You don’t understand what’s wrong with being unfaithful to your wife?
Joseph was faithful to his wife, each of the 13.
Hmmmmmmmm Do you need counseling?
Yes
_________________________________
Overall, I find your argument completely unconvincing. Joseph was a polygamist and a prophet.
Argument closed, move on to the next topic. The world has already acknowledged these truths.
Jack- Only, it is TRUE että James no butter but right.”
Makes perfect sense.”
Actually the translation should be:
“James, you need to realize that Joseph buttered more than one muffin.”
but the grammar was a little off.
Bridget Jack Meyers
I’m sorry but I’m going to speak like a Dutch Uncle to you.
Be warned!
You view of my position comes not from you lack of intelligence but lack of research. You have chosen to do what Jeremiah 17-5-8 warns you and the Utah LDS Church against. Putting your trust in the arm of flesh. Or in other words, trusting man…. ( Scholors )
John the Baptist didn’t equate himself as a lone voice crying out in the wilderness for nothing! Just because John was the only man crying repent Jesus Christ is come, did not make him wrong! He eventually was validated and proven correct! He Baptised Jesus Christ!
You’re acting like the Parasee’s, ( world experts ) who all said John was a crazy man! Excepting if I dare even compare my position to John’s, mine is better, because I’ve around 250,000 people who’ve read the same legal history and court evidence proving Joseph Smith was not a polygamist! Or at minimum never taught polygamy in the Original LDS Church…
And believe you me, we’ve read the Utah LDS History also!
And it confirms what we say. Or in this case, what I say.
At any rate, U.S. Courts and a U.S. Congressional Investigation, even with several of the supposed plural wives and Utah President John Talor as whitness for interogation, could not prove Joseph Smith was a polygamist. Even with all their sworn affidavits of the 30 odd wives, which they showed the court.
If anything the court ruled the oposite!
Yes there is legal documentation saying Joseph Smith did not teach polygamy as church doctrine during His lifetime.
Two different courts, and one 3 year Congressional Investigation not only found Joseph Smith didn’t teach polygamy, but ruled Brigham Young Started it all after Josephs murder.
That the Salt Lake LDS Church and Brigham Young usurped the name, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Which can be proven. That is why you hear the name Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints…
But you won’t hear that as an official story from Utah….
Nor will Utah explain to you their original Church name! Which use to be the New Reformed Mormon Church. This Church came into being to apposed Joseph Smith and the original LDS Church. It later became the Utah Church we know today.
People today believe todays Utah based Church is the original Church! And most you all reading contrary to anything I say, will continue to believe that…. Regardless of the facts….
Even though the RLDS owns all original church property, and up to a few years ago, all copyrights for the Book of Mormon, D&C and Inspired Version Bible!
having been determined legally to be the Original LDS Church both in teaching and legal structure.
That Joseph Smith was murdered by members within the Original LDS Church because of the fight against polygamy and other perpetuated false doctines.
By Joseph Smiths own words, there were 200,000 church members during his lifetime. Brigham Young went to Utah with only 10,000 members of 200,000…. Yet Utah will tell you they were the largest part of the existing church left after Smith’s death. When in truth, 190,000 LDS Church members, upon the death of the Prophet Joseph, unwilling to follow Brigham Young and his false doctrines, split going many different ways other than Utah. This in itself is a judgement against the Utah New Reformed Mormon Church.
Yes the over whelming evidences are, Joseph Smith faught polygamy! He faught polygamy in public address, he preached sermons against it. He initiated legal actions, suing Chauncey L. Higbee who used Josephs name falsely to seduce women, luring them into polygamous marriages.
Chauncey L. Higbee was part of three groups conspiring to either take control of the Original LDS Church From Joseph Smith, or murder him! Why?
Because Joseph Smith faught polygamy, publically showing men up in courts of law and in News Papers to be the frauds they were. Shaming and publically humiliating those men who lied about Joseph Smith. Striping them of Church authority, throwing them out of the Church….
What you may not know, is in 1844 to be proven a liar, put people out of business with all honest citizens… It was a killing offense. The western movies today, while Hollywooded up, are still based upon truth! Calling a man a liar is not like today! Today we call it advertising! 179 years ago, it was a 6 gun battle and people died.
People have grown soft and have forgotten how this nation was founded! They have forgotten the value of a man’s word used to be a killing matter. Even for criminals! We’ve gotten so used to being lied to, by churches, politicions ( Websters definition of the word politicion means “Proffesional Liar” ) ( don’t take my word for it, Check for yourself )
and by men in general. We no longer know the difference between truth and lies…
Even Joseph Smith’s family to this day, denys Joseph Smith was ever a polygamist. They don’t give a hang what the scholors say, they’ve maintained the testimony of Joseph Smith’s innocence for 179 years. Yet what Utah or Protestant Church member has ever asked their opinion on the matter? Have you?
Besides. If Joseph Smith had many wives, where are the kids??? You’ll never them, I’m confident you never will! After all they’ve proven Brigham Young had many wives and children. But Joseph married all those women, yet he never had sex? Yea right! Don’t make me sick!
There is no DNA evidense proving Joseph Smith had polygamous children. Yet you still doubt?
I challenge you to do your research. Do your due dilligence, ask the hard questions, take the road less traveled and see for yourself if I’m not right…..
Your willingness to disbelieve Joseph Smith in is defiance of Psalms 81, “Joseph ( Egypt ) is given a testimony”, Psalms 85 “restoration resulting in truth spring from the earth”,
Isaiah chpt 28-29- confirming a prophet of different tounge will speak and said book arrives, resulting with Lebonon turning green, which began to happen in 1842. The Greening of Lebonon is the date God gave for the arrival of the translation of the seal Book, whom men will read and increase their joy in the Lord!
Your disbelief contradicts Ezekiel 37 of two Books of scripture to be made one book by God, resulting in the Uniting of the split Kingdoms of Israel. Of which America is the other half. Again one Book a testimony of Joseph, the Other Book a testimony of Juda, ( Bible ).
Other scripture includes Acts chapter 3 talking about the times of the restitution and refreshing to come By the power of God through a prophet.
You also error, 2 Corinthian 13:1 says
” out of the Mouths of two or three witnesses EVERY word shall be established!” Please note the word EVERY means God’s words also! He being the original author of the WORD…
So the Bible cannot be the only word of God to come… A Branch of the House of Joseph also shall have scripture come forth by the Power of God.
But where was I? Oh yes! people need to do their home work before just agree with a man. I mean after all I could be telling you a pile of crap also!
I could be a trying to decieve you just to make you believe the Bible is true!
Point being, you must take all men’s words and test them by the Holy Spirit, investigating as you go. How sincere is a person if they tell God OK! I really want to know the truth about Joseph Smith, but their actions don’t prove their words?
They are hypocrits, God is not. He will have nothing to do with men who are lazy…. Or who sin against Him
The challenge for everybody here is to discern how evil works. Evil works secretly, in the dark, keeping people confused, in fear, in doubt. Causing people to withdraw or opt out as to become non factors in life.
Evil lies to people, using scribes, Pharasees, legal and religious leader of the day, to do it’s dirty work. That is why the majority of Jews today believe Jesus Christ has not come yet…. The Pharasee’s admited a man name Jesus Christ came, that He was crucified, but when He arose, the supposedly ” trusted ” leaders/experts of the day ” payed the soldiers large money to spread the word that the deciples had carried Jesus’s body from the grave. Hence leaving the idea in the Jewish Mind Jesus was a false Prophet not of God….
Evil lies, taking truth, twisting it slightly so the end result is a clear miss of the target. The side view look good! But if you look down the barrel of the rifle, you only have to be off a centimeter in truth, to miss by miles!
Who of you all have looked down the gun barrel? Who of you have actually done the research the Scholors claim is correct? Do you know if they’re working for God or the devil? Do they care at all if you know the truth? Are they just taking the easy out?
Do you think the Mormon Church is the only church preaching false doctrine? You show me any church who claims Joseph Smith was a fraud according to scripture, and I’ll prove them liars. You show me Mormon or non Mormon scholors who claim Joseph Smith was a polygamist, and I can show them up as well.
So Bridget, I ask you?
Who’s lying here? Me? Or your Scholors?
Why is it so suprising to you that sometimes people only tell one side of the story? What makes my story so hard to understand? It’s public knowledge, kept in the Library of Congress….. Why is it I who am backed by LDS, RLDS Church histories and U.S. Legal Rulings am doubted?
How much more plain can I speak?
Sincerely and without malice
James Brian Marshall
James! You’re back! Don’t be a stranger.
For the record, “legal determinations” are not necessarily reliable. Courts get stuff wrong all the time.
James,
John the Baptist was “crying out” over spiritual truths which could never be (and still can’t be) empirically tested. The facts about him—that he lived in the wilderness, ate locusts, etc.—weren’t what was contested by the Jews of his day, what was contested were his spiritual claims and what those accepted facts said about him. What you’re disputing is the facts about Joseph Smith; I have little interest in contesting the spiritual narrative different LDS churches have erected around those facts. Don’t confuse the two.
Moving on, it’s pretty amusing to me that you challenge me to “do my research” when you listed not one historical source in your long, rambling wall o’ text. For example:
Two different courts, and one 3 year Congressional Investigation not only found Joseph Smith didn’t teach polygamy, but ruled Brigham Young Started it all after Josephs murder.
Source please. And BTW, it makes me absolutely giddy that you equate citing RLDS and never-Mormon historians as “relying on the arm of the flesh,” but the legal courts of the country? Nope, apparently no flesh there.
Besides. If Joseph Smith had many wives, where are the kids??? You’ll never them, I’m confident you never will! After all they’ve proven Brigham Young had many wives and children. But Joseph married all those women, yet he never had sex? Yea right! Don’t make me sick!
There is no DNA evidense proving Joseph Smith had polygamous children. Yet you still doubt?
I love this argument, because it means I get to talk about sex. There’s several possibilities as to why we have no DNA evidence of possible children yet (and my apologies, but I’m probably about to make you sick):
(1) He didn’t have sex with them very much, and the few who did get pregnant lost their children due to pioneer misfortune.
(2) The polyandrous wives pretended that their children came from their other husbands. There’s still other lineages to DNA test, and at least one of the families that was tested was reported as “inconclusive” (whatever that means).
(3) He was a fan of coitus interruptus and sexual interactions which don’t involve vaginal sex. Do I need to list them all, or can you use your imagination? The people of the 1800s didn’t have the wide array of birth control methods available to us now, but even back then, there were ways of getting your freak on that didn’t lead to kids.
Even if we did have a smoking gun showing that someone descended from one of the plural wives was related to Smith, that still wouldn’t “prove” polygamy; that could either mean polygamy or adultery. It might also mean that conservative Mormons are right and these polygamous sealings were considered to be for eternity only with no earthly sex involved.
So this “bring on the DNA evidence” line is just a dead end.
Who’s lying here? Me? Or your Scholors?
I don’t think you’re lying. I think you’re sadly delusional, but you’re probably sincere in this insane troll logic you’ve constructed to save yourself from having to admit the obvious. And it isn’t just “my” scholars who think JS was a polygamist; yours do, too.
Who of you all have looked down the gun barrel? Who of you have actually done the research the Scholors claim is correct? Do you know if they’re working for God or the devil? Do they care at all if you know the truth? Are they just taking the easy out?
James,
I am convinced. My scholars are liars and, sadly, the devil is their master.
From now on I will trust U.S. Courts as the final arbiter of truth regarding Joseph Smith’s polygamy (and any other matter).
Morever, I am now ready to look down the gun barrel. (I am looking for the easy way out.)
Kullervo,
Yes I’m back! LOL!
No I’m a very busy person, taking the time to write is a luxury I’m not able to afford to often.
Yes you’re absolutly right! Courts often get it wrong. So do churches, people and the governments who govern them all. So do I! So do all people at one time in life or another!
That is why you have to Read LDS Church History, RLDS Church History, Government History, And the Legal History about Both Churches.
2 Corinthians 13:1 ” out of the Mouths of two or Three witnesses every word shall be established.
Do you dismiss the court evidences because courts sometimes are known to get it wrong?
Or do we study them, along with the rest of History!
Kullervo I just saying listening to some Elder or Scholor tell you how it was is, different than if you search for youself unhindered by people influences!
James Marshall
Jared C,
Good for you!!!
However you’ve taken my whole message out of context!
I’d appreciate it if you will stick with the spirit of my message!
Playing word games with my hearts intent I don’t appreciate….. I’d never play games with you!
I have pagan friends who’d never stoop that low!
Besides, you’re avoiding the question….
Sincerely
James Marshall
Wait, what’s that supposed to mean?
Sorry James. I am an incorrigibly horrid human being.
But the problem is that you rely on a court proceedings to determine truth. Having spent a good amount of time in front of judges trying to “prove” the truth I know that most of the time the judges just don’t get there and very decide cases based on their prejudices mixed with a gloss on the evidence.
Also, its hard to imagine how you, and 100s of thousands of other people not connected to the facts, can be so certain of something that Joseph Smith’s own son, who interviewed personally some of the women who claimed to have married the Prophet, was unsure of. I.e. that Joseph didn’t have other wives besides Emma.
Launius, Roger D. (1988), Joseph Smith III: Pragmatic Prophet, University of Illinois Press, ISBN 0252065158 . Provides an excellent discussion of Joseph Smith III’s attempts to understand polygamy’s origins and his father’s role or lack thereof.
I think that was said in the same vein as “I know child molesters who wouldn’t even do that.” But I could be wrong.
But wait James, I actually learnt (albeit badly) my word gaming from those old pagans Socrates and Aristophanes, so don’t be surprised if some do stoop that low.
See, I wasn’t sure if he was using “pagan” perjoratively, was confused and thinks you are pagan, or both.
The latter is funny, the former is a no-no.
Funny?
Aren’t all Mormons a bit pagan?
No.
Sorry, dumb question.
Yes.
“Besides, you’re avoiding the question….”
Hey James, you’re leaving me hanging. I asked a question a while back and was hoping you’d answer. You should really consider becoming Muslim since you’re so keen on prophecy and such.
Jonathan Blake,
Sorry to leave you hanging!
Are you the guy who posted a response with the link where Bigham Young talks about how bad a liar Emma Smith was?
Like I said in recent response I”m a busy man. I’m not avoiding you. Like everybody else I’ve a fulltime job, but then I’ve about 172 acres to take care of also. Two farms actually….. doesn’t leave much time .
Jared C,
Hold Up there Bud!
I rely upon the Holy Spirit to determine truth, not a court procedure…. But the Holy Spirit does not exclude courts as truth! But confirms all truth. Condemning all lies….
Even Jesus Christ allowed Himself to be judged by a court!
Evidence of Truth is determined by physical evidences for and against. Right?
But there is two sides presenting evidence. The Good Guys, and the Bad Guys in a court of law!
Bad guys are liars. Good Guys tell the truth! Sometimes the wrong man goes to jail! The criminal runs free because the law messes up! Or Bad guys lawer was better, paid more money, had better connections…..
I do not contend the basis of my argument upon the authority of man per a court.
But submit to you, to read all the court evidences and history dealing with the LDS/RLDS Church.
Something I’m pretty sure you’ve not done by your responses….
Jesus Christ says ” Search all things, Prove all things True ”
What do I mean?
(I have pagan friends who’d never stoop that low!)
I have friends in Austin TX. Electrician Friends. They’ve never heard of Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon.
They’ve almost never gone to Church because of the hypocrisy they see in churches. They consider themselves pagan…. And they are!
They Smoke.
They Drink.
They Cuss,
They Get Drunk
Get Stoned,
But the gave me an honest listening ear. There are no three men in this world I grew to love more as brothers!
And they trained me as an electricion. Only Problem is I didn’t stay long enough to complete the training…
While they did ask hard questions, they didn’t try to play games with me about Joseph Smith. working to entrap me in my words….
Or like yourself, play games with my words.
As matter of fact, being electricions, they knew more about God they most Christians!
One time I ask one of them where Electricity came come! Gary just looked at men with a wierd look like I was sorta stupid for asking.
He said ” What do you mean where does Electricity come from? It just Is !”
Gary I said, ” that’s the most apt discriptiong for God I’ve ever heard “! Gary just smiled!
So you see, pagans know about God also! But like the fisher men Christ chose, the really good men are rough, tough, uncouth, and unskilled in the art of statecraft….
They are plain spoken, taking people at their word, trusting people not to play games with their words…
I linked to the question, but this blog theme doesn’t make a strong contrast between link and text: my question.
James,
Sorry to play games with your words. I studied philosophy and law, which leads to this unfortunate habit.
And I admit I am messing with you a bit. But, I have read about Joseph Smith and polygamy by both Mormon and non-Mormon scholars. I have read some RLDS stuff on the subject. I think in this case the most reliable is the non-Mormon stuff because there is no doctrinal ax to grind.
Given the mountains of documentary evidence, and the testimonies of so many women and men, also given that many of the women’s statements were made against their interest, it seems unlikely that there was a vast conspiracy to concoct Joseph Smith’s involvement in polygamy.
There was also strong incentive for Joseph to keep it secret during his life (even from Emma)
And there was also strong incentive for many who thought Joseph a prophet to argue against his involvement in the practice since they thought it was too far out there (it seems you are in this category).
“Even Jesus Christ allowed Himself to be judged by a court! ”
Yeah, that probably seemed like a good idea at the time.
Do you really see this as an endorsement of the judicial process?
Smoking, drinking, and cussing don’t make you a pagan. They’re awesome, don’t get me wrong, but they don’t make you a pagan at all. Do your friends practice witchcraft? Do they worship nature? Are they trying to re-claim the old ways? Or do they just live irreverently secular lives? You’re just using “pagan” to mean “irreligious,” and that’s not really fair.
Question: have you even bothered to look around at the rest of my blog, James?
On swearing and Paganism,
In Finland one of the most common swearwords is “Perkele” (Pear -Kay-Lay)
Perkele is actually the name of the Finnish Pagan god of thunder.
It became more of a swearword when Bible translators put the name of the god as the name of Satan in the Bible in order to make the pagan gods look bad. (Finland was one of the last European lands to fall to Christianity (Is “fall” the right word?).
So swearing and paganism have at least that much connection for a Finn. It is a word I hear used often and with gusto. They are literally calling on the god of thunder to damn something.
Finns also have lots of expressions derived from the Kalevala, you hear them in everyday conversation all of the time.
In some ways there is also strong nature-worship element in the culture. You can see in some ways that some pagan elements and sensibilities were not quite as stamped out here as they were in other Christianized cultures.
/Fun facts
Bridget Jack Myers,
You what you’re abosolutely right! I’m sadly dellusional which is why I make it a point to be educated in all sides of a particular story….. You see, people can be easily led by dellusion….
Had you read all my posted responses, you would have seen source and referance earlier on in the conversation….
The Salt Lake LDS Church in yesteryear and today, as well as the supposed ” no ax to grind ( unbiassed Scholars )” all agree Joseph Smith was a polygamist….
They have told the world they agree, and Smith practiced polygamy in Secret.
So Ms. Bridget what evidences contradict LDS and the ” unbiassed no ax to grind scholars?”
Why LDS history of course….
Joseph Smith’s Sermon Against Polygamy
(It is recommended that the reader study the entire sermon in the LDS History of the Church, Period I, 6:408–412.)
There I have submitted to you LDS history contradicting the LDS Churches claims of Josephs Polygamy… But perhaps this is a fluke? So I will submit more evidences……
Joseph Smith, Jr. Taught Monogamy
In his role as leader of the church, Joseph had
many occasions to speak publicly about marriage. It
would be unfair to ignore his clear statements. While
Joseph was the editor of the Times and Seasons in
Nauvoo, a man had a book printed by that press. The
book attempted to defend polygamy in the Bible. Joseph
said this about that:
Notice
There was a book printed at my office, a short time since,
written by Udney H. Jacobs, on marriage, without my knowledge;
and had I been apprised of it, I should not have printed it; not that I am opposed to any man enjoying his privileges; but I do not wish to have my name associated with the authors, in such an unmeaning rigmarole of nonsense, folly, and trash.
Joseph Smith.
—Times and Seasons, Vol. IV, p. 32
The Times and Seasons was a church publication in Joseph Smith’s time… Which documented Joseph Smiths words and actions as well ass that of the Original LDS Church…
When Joseph was asked the question:
“Do the Mormons believe in having more wives than one?”
His answer was clear: “No, not at the same time. But
they believe that if their companion dies, they have a
right to marry again.” (Elders’ Journal, p. 43, July 1838.)
Just five months before Joseph and his brother
were murdered at Carthage, Illinois they published this
statement:
“As we have lately been credibly informed that an Elder of
the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, by the name of
Hiram Brown, has been preaching Polygamy, and other false and
corrupt doctrines, in the county of Lapeer, state of Michigan. This
is to notify him and the Church in general, that he has been cut off from the church for his iniquity; and he is further notified to appear at the Special Conference, on the 6th of April next, to make answer to these charges.
Joseph Smith , Hyrum Smith, Presidents
of said Church.
—Times and Seasons, Vol. III, p. 423.
Just one month before his tragic death Joseph
Smith stated:
“What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing
adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers.
—History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Vol. VI, p. 411.
Yet Utah today, despite their own historical documentation of Joseph Smith claiming otherwise, say Joseph Smith is a polygamist! Why?
The Original Law of the Restored Church—
Monogamy
The law of the original restored church of Jesus
Christ was monogamy—one man and one wife—from its
beginning. Section 42:7d of the Doctrine and Covenants
was received as law to the church just ten months after it
was organized. It states:
“Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shall cleave
unto her and none else; and he that looketh upon a woman to lust after her, shall deny the faith, and shall not have the Spirit; and if
he repents not, he shall be cast out.”
Joseph Smith delievered this D&Crevelation from God. If it was truly from God, then Joseph Smith could not have been a polygamist, yet give heaven sent revelation…. Meaning a polygamist looks upon a woman to lust after her, meaning Joseph Smith could not have translated the Book of Mormon or given D&C revelation because he would not have gift of the Holy Spirit to do so!
Or if Joseph Smith was a fraud, does not a mans words indicate some kind heartfelt intent?
Some individuals on this blog have ridiculed Smith for going to his grave, claiming his innocense of polygamy!
But what if it were true? What if Joseph Smith never was a polygamist?
Brigham Young and his followers in the Utah
Mormon Church broke this very important manogomy law and did deny the faith and separated themselves from those who were faithful to the law of God as revealed in theScriptures.
The book of Doctrine and Covenants was first
published by the restored church in 1835. In order to
clarify their stand on marriage, the representatives of
the church at the General Assembly that ordered its
publication, included a very concise statement about
marriage.
“Inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached
with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we
believe that one man should have one wife; and one woman but
one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to
marry again.”
—Doctrine and Covenants 101:4, (1835 Kirtland ed), (Herald House ed. 111:4b) (8/17/1835)
Bridget pleace notice this statement was submitted in 1835….. Brigham Young and other to be prominent to be Salt Lake Church leaders were already members of the church Smith started! They voted for this statement!
10 years later they changed their tune, claim Smith was the one that lied about being manogomous…
When in truth, Joseph Smith’s story never changed, He continued to preach against polygamy as it is taught by the Book of Mormon and the Bible…
Later in an attack upon the RLDS Church for continuing to reject polygamy, George A. Smith, one of the presidents of the Utah Mormon church, declared the following about those who rejected the new doctrine of polygamy:
They are a poor, narrow-minded, pinch- backed race of men,
who chain themselves down to the law of monogamy, and live all
their days under the dominion of one wife. They ought to be
ashamed of such conduct.
—Journal of Discourses, Vol 3, p. 291, 4/6/1856
This law to the Utah Mormon church has never
been removed from their changed version of the
Doctrine and Covenants. It is still affirmed and
believed by most in that church, although they do admit
that it is not legal to practice at the present time in the
United States of America.
In his presentation of the doctrine of the “plurality
of wives” on August 29, 1852 Brigham Young
declared:
. . . I can deliver a prophecy upon it . . . And I tell you—for
I know it—it will sail over, and ride triumphantly above all the prejudice and priestcraft of the day; it will be fostered and believed in by the more intelligent portions of the world, as one of the best doctrines ever proclaimed to any people.
—Millennial Star, Vol. 15, Supplement, pp. 31, 32
Fourteen years later on August 19, 1866 Brigham
Young declared:
It is the word of the Lord, and I wish to say to you, and all
the world, that if you desire with all your hearts to obtain the blessings which Abraham obtained, you will be polygamists. . . . This is as true as that God lives . . . . The only men who become Gods, even the sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy.
—Journal of Discourses 11:268, 269
Bridget, please contrast this to Joseph Smiths written statements found anywhere, and you find contradiction:
Joseph Smith Gave 1831 LDS Doctrine
and Covenants Revelation Man Should Cleave To one Wife
A revelation received on February 9, 1831, and published to this day in the Utah edition of the Doctrine and Covenants as well as our own, commands: “Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shall cleave unto her and none else” (RLDS Section 42:7; Utah Section 42:22).
Joseph Smith Gave Second 1831 Doctrine and Covenants Revelation Against Pural Marriage
The following month, March 1831, another revelation contained this language: “Marriage is ordained of God unto man; wherefore it is lawful that he should have one wife, and they twain shall be one flesh, and all this that the earth might answer the end of its creation” (Doctrine and Covenants 49:3).
1835 LDS Marriage Ceremony
On August 18, 1835, a conference of the Church considered the form of marriage ceremony to be used in the Church and adopted the following covenant, which is used in every marriage ceremony in this Church to the present day: “You both mutually agree to be each other’s companion, husband and wife, observing the legal rights belonging to this condition; that is, keeping yourselves wholly for each other, and from all others, during your lives?” (Doctrine and Covenants 111:2b).
The same section which includes this marriage covenant incorporates also this declaration of belief from the Church: “We declare that we believe that one man should have one wife; and one woman but one husband” (Doctrine and Covenants 111:4b. This section was removed from the Utah edition in 1876, and the “revelation” on polygamy substituted).
The Book of Mormon, which was translated by Joseph Smith, calls polygamy an abomination and states the rule that one man shall have one wife, “and concubines he shall have none” (Jacob 2:36).
Bridget, Christ said ” by their fruits, ye shall know them”…..
No matter which way you swing it, Joseph Smith went to his grave fighting polygamy…..
Joseph Smith Sued Chauncey L. Higbee in Court at Carthage
Joseph Smith took immediate action when he discovered that Lawyer Chauncey L. Higbee had used his name to seduce women into practicing spiritual wifery. The Prophet was so disturbed by this news that he not only brought Chauncey before the Church’s High Council and had him expelled from the Church, but he took the case two steps further: He sued Chauncey in Nauvoo before Justice of the Peace Ebenezer Robinson, and later in the Hancock County Circuit Court at the county seat at Carthage Missouri. In doing so Joseph provided one of the strongest evidences that:
(1) he was not a polygamist,
(2) that he had not had a revelation commanding the practice of polygamy, and
(3) that polygamy had its origin in some other source (which was in Dr. Bennett’s brand of Cochranism).
Court Rulings Joseph Smith Did Not Teach But Fought Polygamy…..
February 23, 1880, the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, by its attorneys, appeared before the Court of Common Pleas, Lake County, Ohio, (see journal entry, February term, 1880) as plaintiff, asking for possession of the Kirtland Temple, an edifice erected during the early days of the church, and prior to the death of Joseph Smith the Martyr. The church in Utah, then presided over by John Taylor, was named with others as defendants.
Judge L. S. Sherman rendered the following decision:
“That the said Plaintiff, the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a Religious Society, founded and organized upon the same doctrines and tenets, and having the same church organization, as the original Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, organized in 1830, by Joseph Smith, and was organized pursuant to the constitution, laws and usages of said original Church, and has branches located in Illinois, Ohio, and other States.
That the church in Utah, the Defendant of which John Taylor is president, has materially and largely departed from the faith, doctrines, laws, ordinances and usages of said original Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and has incorporated into its system of faith the doctrines of celestial marriage and a plurality of wives, and the doctrine of Adam-god worship, contrary to the laws and constitution of said original Church.
And the Court do further find that the Plaintiff, the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, is the True and Lawful continuation of, and successor to the said original Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, organized in 1830, and is entitled in law to all its rights and property.”
In a case tried before Judge John F. Philips, in the Circuit Court of the United States, for the Western District of Missouri, Western Division, at Kansas City, Missouri.
In his decision, rendered March 16, 1894, Judge Philips said:
The Book of Mormon itself inveighed against the sin of polygamy…. Conformably to the Book of Mormon, the Book of Doctrine and Covenants expressly declared “that we believe that one man should have but one wife, and one woman but one husband.” And this declaration of the church on this subject reappeared in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, editions of 1846 and 1856. Its first appearance as a dogma of the church (the dogma of polygamy) was in the Utah Church in 1852.
Claim is made by the Utah Church that this doctrine is predicated of a revelation made to Joseph Smith in July, 1843. No such revelation was ever made public during the life of Joseph Smith, and under the law of the church it could not become an article of faith and belief until submitted to and adopted by the church. This was never done ….
Decision of Judge Philips in Temple Lot Case, pp. 20-26.
(History of RLDS Church Vol 5 pp. 238-239)
Here is some evidense.
The Utah Church Lied About Joseph Smiths Personal History
During his lifetime, Joseph Smith published a letter
in which he gave a brief description of what happens after
death.
Years after Joseph Smith’s death the Utah
Mormon church published an altered version of that letter.
The changes made it appear that he had supported the
new and strange doctrine of plurality of gods.
“A time to come in the which nothing shall be
withheld, whether there be one God or many gods, they shall be manifest.All thrones and dominions, principalities and powers, shall be revealed and set forth upon all who have endured valiantly for the gospel of Jesus Christ.”
—Doctrine and Covenants (Utah edition) 121:28
The Utah version of this statement by Joseph
Smith, Jr. was printed years after his death. The altered
text cited above can be found in its original form in the
Times and Seasons, Vol. 1, p. 103. The original publication
will be found to read like this:
“. . . a time when nothing shall be withheld, when all the glories of earth and heaven, time and eternity shall be manifest to all those, who have endured valiantly for the gospel of Jesus Christ.”
There is a profound difference between what was
first published by Joseph Smith, Jr. and what was later
altered and published by the Utah Mormon church.
Joseph said nothing about “many gods.” That idea was
forged in order to support a new theology that was
developed by the leaders of the Mormon church in
Bridget, you may scoff at me and tell me I don’t present evidences. You may sneer at my gaul for challenging your thinking….. Thinking me a religious zelott or fool. And perhaps I may be dellusional!
But when I said you have not studied your history, what I meant was you don’t know your stuff. Meaning you choose to make claims of your own as to my dellusion, having never examined my evidence, nor done any study upon the matter yourself. Meaning in this one area you don’t know what you’re talking about, therefore you throw insults instead of naming your sources as you’ve challenged me to do.
Of which I can do, seeing as I have all the volumes of LDS/ RLDS History of the Church on CD…. As well as the evidences of the Biblem, Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants. And I’m more than happy to study them.
You say the Scholars all agree, Joseph Smith was a polygamist….
Yet it seems the scholars have no explanation why Salt Lake Mormon history contradicts them… Why is that?
As for your DNA reasoning? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm after DNA testing conclusively proved Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimbal had many polygamous children, I think it a bit of a stretch that it couldn’t conclusively prove or disprove Joseph Smiths supposed Childrens linage!
Excepting there were no other children by Joseph, but between him and Emma Smith!
Bridget Jack Meyers
I say Joseph Smith had no other children excepting with Emma Smith because Emma Smith on hear death bed, let it be known Joseph Smith never was a polygamist!
Also contradicting the Salt Lake Churches claims.
This correlates with U.S. Courts, Actual LDS History, RLDS History and all the claims of Decendants of Joseph Smith, his immediate is decending family…..
In matters of truth, 2 Corinthians 13-1…..
Out of the Mouths of 2 or 3 witnesses, EVERY WORD shall be established! ( EVERY WORD includeds God’s word )
So don’t turn your nose up at something I can back with scipture, history, and court rulings
“I say Joseph Smith had no other children excepting with Emma Smith because Emma Smith on hear death bed, let it be known Joseph Smith never was a polygamist!”
I have to admit, the arguments are getting more and more compelling,
Emma, arguably the one who had the most to be embarrassed about if Joseph was a polygamist, and the one Joseph would probably be most likely to hide his other wives from, adamantly denied it.
Its also extremely compelling that the Judge Sherman in Ohio essentially disbelieved the numerous affidavits of multiple wives and ruled against the Utah Mormons when John Taylor and other Mormons were pariahs throughout the US due to the practice.
I can see absolutely no reason whatsoever any of these people could get it wrong or even deviate from the absolute facts.
I think we simply need to disregard the hundreds of affidavits, accouts, letters, journals, and other documentation as an organized conspired fraud that was simply used to promote the popular and generally satisfying practice of plural marriage in Utah that was orchestrated by Brigham Young and followed by even his bitter rivals within the LDS Church.
However, as I said before, all of this dramatic and compelling evidence pales in comparison to the brilliant documentation of Jesus’ own polygamy.
Jesus the polygamist => Joseph the Polygamist
case
closed
hey Kullervo,
Just thought I’d drop by and say “The Book of Mormon is true!” 🙂 so there.
That’ll learn ya Kullervo.
wow, sorry to miss out on Rick Hurd’s long lost cousin.
Jared C,
Jesus the Polygamist!
Hah! You contradict the Lord your God….. and His Son Jesus Christ….
It is interesting you agree so suddenly there was an organized Conspiracy against Joseph Smith!
Ancient Hebrews when writing about a subject wrote in blocks of information!
Isaiah backs your statement of agreement about there being a conspiracy against the Restored Church, Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. Want proof?
Isaiah 29:11
11And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed,= ( Book of Mormon ) which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. = ( Joseph Smith who only possed a middle school education )
13Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, = ( Book of Mormon ) even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. = ( Because men teach after their own precepts and understanding, not according to the Holy Spirits commands )
Jared C. please note Isaiah now speaks about men who conspire against the great and marvelous work….. Who seek to turn the work of the potter ( God ) upside down…
15Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, ( Brigham Young, William Law, Dr, Bennett and Company, Utah LDS Church ) and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us? ( teaching false doctrines in secret )
Isaiah
16Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter’s clay:
( Notice the Book of Mormon and Utah D&C condemns polygamy, Joseph Smith also faught polygamy, Yet Utah teaches it a Heaven sent doctrine turning upside down the Potters intended work, twisting it )
Isaiah 16 continued,
for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
( After all the Book of Mormon does teach of Jesus Christ, It is a record decending form Joseph of whom King David prophecied Psalms 81 God would set in Joseph for a Testimony… Later Backing Joseph Smith’s claim of taking the gold plates from the earth in Psalms 85… David wrote: ” Truth shall spring from the earth ” But I digress!
Note again, how Isaiah writes about these men conspiring against the great and marelous work. Isaiah gives the date of the conspiracy as being pre 1842…… How can I say such a thing? Because of history! The rains began to return to Lebanon in 1842. After nearly 2000 years of drought! And Lebanon began to become the agricultural powerhouse of the Middle East by 1900. The greening of Lebonon is the date! As a star shining over Bethlehem was Heavens notification to man Christ had hit planet earth, The greening of Lebonon is the date confirming the coming of the Book of Mormon and the men who conspire against Christ’s restored Church and great and marvelous work!
Isaiah 29:17
17Is it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest?
18And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
Yes the Utah Mormon Church and the men who conspired to murdered Joseph Smith were prophecied by Isaiah 2600 years ago.
Yes according to your bible, there was a conspiracy… And the greening of Lebonon is confirmational prophecy, confirming the truth of and the coming of the Book of Mormon, ( great and marvelous work ), but also confirming a conspiracy had formed against that work… A conspiracy to appose the true restoration of Christ’s Church, and the restoration of God’s Everlasting Covenant with man. Confirming there would be those men who would aline themselves with Satan against God’s work in apposition to Heavens will for all mankind…..
Joseph Smith and the Original LDS Church are the Elect spoken of in your bibles… Know you not the prophecy written, the Beast shall war against the Saints, that should not the days be shortened there should none of the Elect be left? That even the elect if they allow themselves, also shall be decived?
Do you not recognize yourselves for who you are? Do you not recognize fullfilment of prophecy?
Christ’s true church always has opposition… Satan always has a mimicing look alike posing as the true church…. Yet one church has power and heaven sent authority. The poser only looks the same, but when investigated, proves it’s self a liar…..
That is why I came down so hard on Bridget… We must all investigate the truth for ourselves.
Christ is King of the Earth, Satan is king of the world system. Satan rules all Churches excepting one….
Have you done your research to know which one is Christ’s true Church, and which one is a look alike, teaching the appearance of truth, but when unveiled is permiated with lies, manipulations, control and conspiracy?
God never Changes, but is the same, everlasting to everlasting!
2 Corinthians 13:1
1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
The Bible forbids polygamy, The Book of Mormon condemns polygamy, the Doctrine and Covenants ( Utah LDS, RLDS D&C ) commands against polygamy, but commands man should cleave to one wife, and women to but one husband…
Any who teach against these three whitnesses ( Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants ) are of the synagogue of Satan.
Want proof?
Revelations 2: 14-15
Jesus Christ Speaking!
14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
15So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
The doctrine of the Nicolaitanes was a doctrine of free love and promiscuity… Polygamy is of that doctrine, as verse 14 reads above, is the doctrine of Balaam ( Satan ) While one could argue verse 14, verses fifteen is Jesus Christ speaking to John the Revelator, saying free love is a thing He hates….
If the Book of Mormon is true, and we know it is because our bible shows us clearly it is, then the Bible also is true. If the Bible and Book of Mormon is true, the the Doctrine and Covenants also is true. All three condemn polygamy.
Teaching men and women must have but one wife, or one husband, unless one should die.
Jesus Christ in Revelations 2:15 condemns free love saying it’s a thing He hates…. Polygamy is free love for men, teaching men it’s OK to prey upon women…
Just as satan used Eve working to seduce, to prey upon her in Eden twisting God’s teaching, causing Eve who walked with God to be decieved and make the wrong choice, so as to cause all men to fall…
Jared C,
On your last comment about the Judge….
What you didn’t say was the Judge ruled that the Utah LDS Church indeed did Change it’s doctrine from the original taught by Joseph Smith.
Further more said Judge listed what those changes were….
Which is why said Judge ruled the RLDS Church the true successor to the original LDS Church Joseph Smith started.
Being true to the original teachings and doctrines and taught by Joseph Smith…
Which is why the RLDS Church has all rights to land property owned by said original Church…
“The Bible forbids polygamy, The Book of Mormon condemns polygamy, the Doctrine and Covenants ( Utah LDS, RLDS D&C ) commands against polygamy, but commands man should cleave to one wife, and women to but one husband…”
Actually, none of these books of scripture forbids polygamy. The Book of Mormon doesn’t like CONCUBINES. It says little to nothing about multiple wives.
The D&C of course endorses polygamy as even mandated (unless you hold some hyped-up conspiracy about how evil ole Brigham Young tampered with the text).
And the Bible actually doesn’t seem to give a damn one way or the other how many wives you have as long as people are being treated well.
And really James, what’s wrong with polygamy in the first place? Name me one problem with polygamy that isn’t just as much a problem with monogamy.
Try it – one problem.
James.
“What you didn’t say was the Judge ruled that the Utah LDS Church indeed did Change it’s doctrine from the original taught by Joseph Smith”
Why wouldn’t he have rule that? The Church did change its teachings. SO DID JOSEPH SMITH, THE LEADER OF THE CHURCH!
The fact that that made any difference in the legal dispute is nearly laughable.
If Jesus was a polygamist then polygamy was not the “free love” he condemned.
Polygamy actually seems like pretty expensive love for a man. Marriage has never been cheap.
Seth R
I’ve taken the liberty to quote Bible, LDS Book of Mormon, and LDS D&C teachings and Commandments against having multiple wives…
You are mistaken. The Book of Mormon LDS Jacob 2:24-28 deals directly with your misassumed topic. Matter of fact the whole Jacob Chapter 2 deal specifically with how God find polygamy an abomination….
For a man who freely quotes scripture and facts about Joseph Smith, you must be confused…… Or perhaps don’t understand your scriptures….
As for your accusation I’m believing some wacked out storied hype, I have quoted RLDS scripture also. You will find word for word, they carry the same meaning!
I trust those reading will find I’m no more hyped than Utah scripture….. Only those preaching false doctrine, and those making false misinformed claims are hyped as according to the Bible, Book of Mormon and D&C….
The Bible—Monogamy
The Bible records the history of many men who
were saints and sinners. It is clear that there were men
in the Bible who had more than one wife, but the Bible
never condones or blesses that practice. The law has
always been very clear and was fore-shadowed in the
creation when man was given only one wife.
From the beginning of the creation God made them male
and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother,and cleave to his wife; and they twain [two] shall be one flesh.
—Mark 10:6-7 (Words of Jesus Christ.)
The Lord hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously; yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant. And did not he make one? [wife for Adam—Eve] Yet had he the residue of the Spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
—Malachi 2:14-15
It should be noted that the ugly countenance of
polygamy began very early in the history of mankind.
The great-great-great grandson of Cain (Lamech—not
to be confused with the father of Noah) married more
than one wife. Even though some of the kings of Israel
had many wives, they were clearly breaking the law of
God that was recorded in Deuteronomy 17:17
Deuteronomy 17:17
Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn
not away.
The Apostle Peter warned the saints of the New Testament church that there would soon come false teachers
among them. He said that their “damnable heresies”
would bring reproach upon the church and the true saints.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of
whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
—2 Peter 2:2
Seth please note Peter spoke of Men warping Christ’s true doctrine, leading away many in the church! Preaching vanity, pride and blasphemies with an appearance and form of Godliness, but denying the power thereoff! 2 Timothy 3:1-5 prophecies men like those unto the Utah Church, having a form of godlyness but denying the power there off
2 Timothy:1-5
1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
Utah Church Conspiracy
2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
Commenting Above: As Joseph Smith was falsely accused!
4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Verse 3-4 = Brigham Young and Company, as well as other churches….
5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. =’s explaination why 10 thousand Latter Day Saint went to Utah, and according to Joseph Smith’s own membership estimations, 190,000 Church members turned away in varius other directions…
All because of Utah polygamy!
Those who taught and practiced such evil doctrines
as free love and fornication in the early Christian church
brought reproach upon the whole church. The same thing
has happened in the last days. There were those who fell
away and became teachers of false doctrines that are abominable to God.
Jude 1:4
4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Book of Mormon—Monogamy
The Book of Mormon strongly condemns
polygamy and in doing so teaches the Biblical law of
monogamy, as shown by the following passages from
the Book of Mormon.
God Warned King Soloman in the Bible not to Multiply many wives unto himself… He did and it destroyed him… Read your Bible!
Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives, and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord. . . I, the Lord God, will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old . . . hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none: For I, the Lord God, delighteth in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me: thus
saith the Lord of hosts.
—Jacob 2:33-37 RLDS/Utah Edition Jacob 2:24-28
For behold, he [King Noah] did not keep the commandments
of God, but he did walk after the desires of his own heart.
And he had many wives and concubines. And did cause his people to commit sin, and do that which was abominable in the sight of the Lord. Yea, and they did commit whoredoms, and all manner of wickedness.
—RLDS Mosiah 7:2-5/ Utah Edition Mosiah 11:2
“And it came to pass that Riplakish did not do that which
was right in the sight of the Lord, for he did have many wives and concubines.”
—RLDS Ether 4:48 Utah Edition 10:5
The Book of Mormon speaks out more clearly
than even the Bible on this moral issue. There is no
doubt left in one’s mind that the Book of Mormon does
not teach Polygamy. Its teaching about marriage is
simple and plain: one man, one wife—period.
Doctrine and Covenants Commandment against Polygamy
Section (RLDS Section 42:7; Utah Section 42:22).
The Original Law of the Restored Church—
Monogamy
The law of the original restored church of Jesus
Christ was monogamy—one man and one wife—from its
beginning. Section (RLDS Section 42:7; Utah Section 42:22).
of the Doctrine and Covenants
was received as law to the church just ten months after it
was organized. It states:
“Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shall cleave
unto her and none else; and he that looketh upon a woman to lust after her, shall deny the faith, and shall not have the Spirit; and ifhe repents not, he shall be cast out.”
Seth R, looks like a pretty clear cut condemnation to me!
Jared R
8 years after Joseph Smith’s murder Brigham Young takes supposed revelation from his desk with a pattened lock. A desk from which who’m in LDS History Brigham Young boasts no man see’s the things contained within… You need me to back what I say from LDS History Books?
Do you need me prove to you with the Utah Churches own records, it was Brigham Young who set up Joseph Smith for a fall guy?
I mean common? How many long winded posts do you want to see? I’ve given you’all all evidenses to start look and asking the hard questions on your own! Yet you debate your own churches history….
Jared Joseph Smith never changed the teachings… The original LDS Church was set up, so every new doctrine accepted had to be voted on and accepted by the people…..
Joseph Smith never braught the polygamy doctrine before the people for radification. And every statement he every made pertaining the subject, was against polygamy….
Unless you want to believe the men who rewrote Joseph Smith’s personal History… Which did happen as sure as there is and LDS and RLDS Church. We split because of polygamy! We split off from the the Utah bunch because their leaders taught false doctrines…. Doctrine Smith never taught…..
Further, you make a mockery out of Joseph Smith’s family who to this day contest your claims….
Yet you do not take a trip to Missouri to ask them what actually happened? Or reads history for yourself?
Whow!
What is laughable is your stuborness…..
I never said the Utah Church does not have truth…. They do… Yet they do not teach according to the truth within their own scriptures with joseph Smith translated or Revelated…. Rather they teach according to the precepts of men, them being mainly the Prophets and Apostles, priesthood who lead the church, But teach falsely….
Jared you’re making claims, but you need back them so all the world can see….
You guys have me backing what I say…. If you have evidences otherwise, start posting them…..
Let’s get real here…. You post what your scholars say, and I’ll post what your history and scripture says…
That way we all can judge for ourselves what is true.
Jared, after all I could be wrong?
Let’s see…..
[yawn]
James, wake me up when you don’t have an ax to grind and are ready to examine the evidence objectively instead of droning on about stuff that isn’t germane to the history (i.e. biased denials by Emma, court findings, biblical prophecy, etc.). I’ll grant you that DNA evidence is lacking for Joseph’s polygamy. However, what is it that theists like to say? Absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence.
In the Wikipedia article about the origins of the LDS practice of polygamy, it states that the idea that Joseph secretly practiced polygamy “is supported by “sealing” records, public marriage licenses (in many cases notarized), affidavits, letters, journals and diaries.” You can follow the references given if you’re interested.
As for me and my house, I don’t care much either way whether Joseph practiced polygamy. Either way, the LDS church is screwed which makes me happy. I just hate to see someone so obviously torturing the facts as we know them, unwilling to acknowledge both the evidence for and against his position.
Jonathan Blake,
Thanks for the advice…
As for my torturing the facts? Why don’t you post your own information visually so people on this blog can compare what you say to what I say….
After all If I’m wrong, why hestitate ye?
If I hesitate, it’s because I doubt that you’ll give it a fair hearing. Why waste my time if you’re not prepared to listen? After all, your religious identity is at stake. You seem intent on winning an argument rather than examining evidence. I really don’t care that much and should be spending my time on more important things.
If you care so much about this, then look up the opposing viewpoints on that Wikipedia article and look up their source documents, the aforementioned notarized marriage licenses, diaries, etc.
Jonathan Blake,
In my last response to you, I left room for my being wrong…
Do I think I’m wrong? Honestly no I don’t!
On the other hand do I know it all? No I don’t….
I’m willing to learn!
I have no religious identity…
I have spiritual identity! I’m a servant of Jesus Christ….
I don’t mix right with wrong…
Does that mean I’m always right? No….
Does that mean because I’m a falible man I’m never correct in discerning right from wrong by the power of the Holy Spirit? Many times I’m correct!
But still I fail! I’m just like you…. Excepting when I operate by the Holy Spirit….
I am opening the door for you to display your evidenses and compare them to mine…
My identity is to Jesus Christ. I’m His servant… Not servant to a world religious body….
“I have no religious identity… I have spiritual identity! I’m a servant of Jesus Christ….”
Tomato, tomahto. They’re all there, ripe for the picking. The evidences, that is. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
James, in fairness, let me say that I recognize in you the same mental gymnastics that I was guilty of when I was so heavily invested in believing that Joseph Smith was a prophet. Perhaps I’m wrong, and you’re not like I was. Or perhaps I’m right.
If I’m right, then you’re not likely to truly listen to anything I have to say, unless what I say confirms your beliefs. You might carefully read what I write, but your mental defenses will be on high alert and reject out-of-hand anything that challenges your beliefs. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink and all that. So you see why I’m not enthused about examining the evidences with you if you’re just as closed off as I once was.
Or maybe I’m wrong and you are actually open to changing your mind. In that case, I guess you can do the research for yourself and find out why, as I understand it, the vast majority of historians (of all stripes) who have looked into the question have concluded that Joseph Smith privately practiced polygamy.
“Yet you do not take a trip to Missouri to ask them what actually happened? Or reads history for yourself?”
I’ll have you know that I was raised in Kansas and have been to Missouri and Nauvoo many times.
Jared C
But have you personally visited Joseph Smiths family and asked them why they still will defend Joseph Smith’s innocense of polygamy to this day???
Common you guys is it that hard to talk straight talk here?
I mean what if you’re were wrong about Joseph Smith being a polygamist? How much skin of your nose would that be???
Do you realize how many millions of Salt Lake Mormons would no longer have to deal with the BIG POLYGAMY question about Joseph Smith?
Wouldn’t that make witnessing for Jesus so much easier if you could say it was a lie?
You guys are so afraid of being trapped, you’re more squrly than a 2 year old bronc!
Jonothan Blake,
Being a lifetime horseman I’m quite familiar with leading horses to water but you cannot make them drink!
Unless the horse is thirsty…. And I am very good at getting the equine species thirsty….
I just work them till they are very tired and sweaty and in time, they drink of their own choice… But horses are more honest than people… They don’t lie, they are not narcisistic either… Something we all are in one way or other, myself included….
Horses see life for what it is, dealing with the present situation… Unlike people, who make life what it’s not, then to make themselves feel better call it truth.
( only speaking for myself ) ( something I had to repent from since I was 28 )
Jonothan you’re the horse. Jesus is the Master horse trainer…. I cannot lead you to water, nor can I make you partake of the water…. Only you can do such a thing… You only by your free will may drink.
If you refuse, then you will wax more thirsty… Worse if you refuse, not only will you get more thirsty, but you will never know the difference between good water and bitter water… And if all you’ve had all your life is bitter water, how know you the taste of clean water?
But who is to say? Only you! But do you know if you’re right? Only experimenting will provide the answer…
I cannot make your partake of clean water.
But what I can do is be a voice crying in the wilderness, telling the truth about Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith… You can reject it or accept it as you wish…
Horses test the goodness of water not by being leary, skeptical or paranoid. They open their mouths and partake of the water to test it! If they don’t like the water they spit it out! Horses do not accept or reject water upon the words of others horses or even people. Horses search the water out for themselves, dip their muzzles and drink….
Horses are not afraid to test, experiance and experiment upon God’s word…. But people, in times past, present and future do fear God’s word… Not because of the truths contained within, but because of the lies God’s word exposes… Satan’s mission it to get US ALL ( ME TOO ) to defend the lie. Or at least be ignorant of the truth…
But horses won’t get caught in such nonsense..
Instead, they have a relationship with the water. By experiancing the Living Water the horse decides weather it is good, desired, either in full or in part, partaking incompletely or completely, all dependant upon the taist of the water! Horses are not afraid, they are open and vulnerable to exploration…
You to me seem paranoid to commit! But I’ll not be haisty to assume.
It is in me to say only Joseph Smith was innocent of the polygamous charges. I can find you innumerable proofs and contradictory evidences of those charges… Enough evidences to make any open and vulnerable, thinking Salt Lake Mormon rethink and take notice, to begin to question…
But I cannot make you investigate for yourself. And I definately cannot make you openly question me… That is up to you…..
I can also show you the Salt Lake Church lied to their memebers… But I cannot make you believe something someone else has primed your mind to disbelieve.
Jonothan you act the cynic, but deep down you’re deffending an idea just like me…. Only you’re idea is Joseph Smith polygamized amongst others….
If that was an absolute truth, why does the RLDS Church exist? Why have we for 179 years defended Joseph Smith’s innocence? Can you accurately answer that question?
Are you going to say for 179 years we’ve been decieved? When really we testify the Holy Scriptures and Doctrine and Covenants speaks truly, a man cannot lust after a woman and still have the spirit of God work in Him?
Something the Salt Lake Church claims happened! Yet they contradict the very scriptures they say Joseph Smith gave by the power of God! How can that be?
Polygamy is lust… Pure and simple.
As for my mental gymnastics?
Hmmmmm…..
When dealing with liars, all people learn to turn a phrase… Myself included… But that is war… War is of satan…
I try real hard not to war with people, but fail… Old habits die hard!
As you’ve witnessed even I have at times said things upon this blog I really should have kept to myself. I too can loose my patience, especially when people do not openly appose my ideas with ideas of their own….
You see I too need to communicate! But not with people who are afraid to be open… My ideas need refining and testing, just like yours. How else will we discover if they’re true? A good idea will withstand the test of critical scrutiny…. A bad idea like a house on sandy foundation will fall….
When having a relationship with people, all men and women make mistakes… After all, all men must partake of the bitter ( make mistakes ) to know the sweet!
Mistakes are nessesary if people are to live…
Satan’s doctrine is to be wary, don’t blow it, don’t get snookered…. But you know, if man never makes a mistake, he does not sin, and if He does not sin, Jesus Christ cannot save Him… Life has nothing to do with lack of mistakes…
Life has everything to do with mistakes… Only through mistakes, can Jesus Christ save us from sin… Sin originally translated from the Greek, means ” to miss ones target “! Sin is an archery term…
But men cannot even miss the target, if they never shoot to begin with!
What bothers me about you, is you never change your aim.
Worse you never seem to pick up the bow and shoot the arrow!
I’ve willingly asked you to present your evidences on the chance I could be wrong.
In what I’ve written you, I’ve exhibited a man who loves to learn and research, not because He loves to be right, but because he loves rightiousness…
Jonothan Blake my name is James Brian Marshall… I’m one of the most successful failures the world has ever seen… I’m a happy man, not because I insist upon being right, but because I commit to having a relationship with Jesus Christ. Not because I’m right, but because I’ve been proven wrong more times than I can count!!!
I am because of Jesus Christ, and if what you say is true about Joseph Smith, Jesus Christ will show me, and if what you say is false, Jesus Christ will show me…. As will all the Scriptures and evidential history…
I don’t continue my study of scripture and history because I’m right, I continue because I know just how wrong I can be…..
So Jonothan… Do you care to have a real relationship with me, get your hands dirty with me and we become greater friends and bothers? I learning from you and you me? Or choose you to stay your distance?
Blaiming me for why you won’t pull the trigger and weather right or wrong win my respect and friendship forever?
Sincerely
James Brian Marshall
P.S. To all you guys….
I’m not playing word games with you.
I’m as real and sincere as the wart, liver spot or mole on your shoulder…
James, I think you have taught us all how to be bothers.
Hey James, I can tell you’re sincere. Perhaps that’s why I respond. I don’t know.
All the same, if you’re trying to convince me that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, that ship has sailed, as it has for many here. I’ve spent a good portion of my life under that notion. I don’t intend to waste any more time on it. I’ve done the experiment and in my life it has failed. Time for me to move on.
The question for me is so much larger than just Joseph Smith’s polygamy. That’s not even close to why I stopped being Mormon. It’s only a mildly interesting question to me. Either way, if Joseph Smith introduced polygamy or if it was Brigham Young, it would make no difference. I would be very surprised if Joseph Smith didn’t practice polygamy, but I’d be unmoved religiously because that has nothing to do with my religious change of heart.
To get me from where I am to believing in Joseph Smith again, you would have to convince me that there is a God who literally answers prayers, that I have a need to be saved, that God needed to perform a human sacrifice to save me, that Jesus of Nazareth was a historical figure, that he was that human sacrifice, that he rose from the dead, and that I can believe Joseph Smith when he says that he was called by God in person.
That’s a long hard slog for you with very little chance of success, not because I choose to be hardhearted but because I require extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims. I’m as open to Joseph Smith’s claims to prophethood as I am to Mohammed’s, Bahá’u’lláh’s, or Ellen White’s. Show me the evidence and I’ll believe.
That said, waste no time worrying about my happiness. I am happier now than I ever was as Mormon or Christian.
“You guys are so afraid of being trapped, you’re more squrly than a 2 year old bronc!”
Look, I have read RLDS stuff on the question, and the mormon stuff and some non-mormon stuff.
What Joseph Smiths current relatives say on the subject is just one datapoint.
BTW- Polygamy is pure lust in the same way marriage is pure lust.
But I don’t think God cares about that nearly as much as people seem to think, I think this is obvious by the way that Joseph got with so many women, even other men’s wives and still was a prophet.
Kullervo
What do you mean?
” I’ve taught you all how to be brothers?”
Jonathan Blake,
What Kind of evidence do you need?
And if I can display to you the evidences Joseph Smith indeed was a prophet, that Jesus Christ did indeed exist and come to save us,
Would you believe it? If you would believe it, click my above name tag, and you will see some interesting Book of Mormon evidences of truth….
Or would you still be adversarial and unlikely to accept the gospel or the idea there is a God…
For I testify to you there is a God, and I testify to you Jesus Christ did come in the flesh to save us all. And I futher testify Jesus Christ is real, for I myself have met Him through the voice of the Holy Spirit…. And because I have heard and obeyed this still small voice, I have joy. And my life is exponentially better since I was 28 years old, the time I began to obey and pursue following the Holy Spirit in all facets of my life… I’m now 36….
Jonathan, you may have been a Mormon in a church which claimed to be the true church of Jesus Christ.
But the Salt Lake LDS Church apostastized in teaching…
When a Church apostises from Christs original doctrine and teachings, it looses it spiritual power and authority with Heaven. A Church with no Heavenly authority has no power, nor can prayer be answered by Heaven, for ye stumble because you were taught by the precepts of men rather than by the precepts of God. Isaiah chapters 28-29.
And because ye were taught by the precepts of men, rather than the precepts of God, you pray for things not expediant to your better well fair… There for God cannot answer your prayers, for to do so would bring spiritual harm….. Something Jesus Christ cannot do, for He is a loving God, a God of Judgment and compassion. But also a just God, who will not do things for His people that would bring them spirituall condemnation…
For If God were to answer all prayer not expediant to the well fair of all people, He would be like Satan, who stalks this earth like a lion, looking for those whom he can, decieve devour and destroy…
God cannot do this, else He would be found a liar, and all the universe would become as nothing.
If you have no power in prayer before God, even to the answering of prayer, then there is a problem. I have told you the problem these past weaks, much to your skeptical minds. You’ve been lied to, all of you.
Yet the irony is, that even as I say you’ve been decieved, you still defend the very idea many of you yourselves question….. Wondering as to it’s authenticity. Weather Joseph Smith was a true phophet, Is the Book of Mormon true.
Jonathan I have a website documenting photographic archaeological evidences the Book of Mormon is true. These photographs and archaeological discoverys are backed by researchers from such institutions as
The Smithsonian, National Geographic, Museum of Natural Science, Acedemy of Natural Science, Benjamin Franklin,
U.S. Park Services and many doctors and Proffesors not associated with BYU or the Salt Lake Church…
But notice, many institutions after having themselves found the evidences, later accuse the man who found it as a liar. So very much after the pattern of Joseph Smith’s own testimy… But that does not explain why doctors of science all over the Americas are finding evidences of Hebrews in the America’s…
The reason you doubt Joseph Smith is a prophet is due in part because of what you’ve not been taught…. What you’ve not been allowed to see and judge for yourself unhindered by some man telling you how to think.
You were not taught true scripture. Unless you were only shown those things backing the Salt Lake LDS cause… But any God who’s a true and fair God, will bless His true church, or if they backslide into sin curse that church…
The Book of Mormon, 3 Nephi warns when God’s people say ” all is well in Zion ” that we should all beware! For all is not well in Zion!
The man who first stated all is well in Zion was LDS Mormon Prophet Gordon B. Hinkley in 1996 at Salt Lake LDS World Conferance…..
This Little tidbit of History alone gives evidence of Joseph Smith being a Prophet. For 179 years ago, Smith wrote about men, predicting what those men would say, before he said it…
In closing I agains ask the question what kind of evidence do you need?
You may think it’s to much for me to provide, but then I’m a PK ( preachers Kid )…. Yes I backslid for a while, but I still have 36 years of study and knowledge, of church and history.
Sincerely
James Brian Marshall
Jared,
Hey bud,
You didn’t answer the question…. Have you visited Joseph Smith’s family?’ Have you talked to them?
Or at minimum read their written statements testifying to Joseph Smith’s not being a polygamist?
Common Jared, you say just one data point. But when convicting fellons, one data point is the differance between conviction and proclamation of innocense.
That is the point of the U.S. Court rulings. Even with several of Joseph Smith’s supposed wives present, with all the affidavits of supposed marriages performed, Judges could not rule Smith a polygamist, even those the Salt Lake Church claimed other wise.
Keep in mind Joseph Smith from almost 1830 to 1844 was taken and tried in front of county and municiple courts on trumped up charges he was a polygamist or a law breaker in some way. He was aquited of all charges every time…
The reason why is because the judges new the otherside of the Joseph Smith story… Unlike you, who do not…
For having read the “RLDS stuff” you know precariously little about it! For had you read much of it, you would know personally the LDS Church lied.
Don’t just sweep aside evidence because it’s just one data point. it only takes one straw to break the Cammels back or lighten the load.
By the same tolken, the evidense for Joseph Smiths innocense of polygamy is more than one data point. It’s an over whelming flood. Do not suppose because I have written you what I’ve written you, more cannot be furnished. I have presented you not even a tenth of what’s available.
I’ve looked at the Mormon stuff, and I’ve looked at the RLDS stuff! I know enough about both churches I can see the discrepincy.
Besides, just how honest are you being if you omit evidense for or against, dependant upon your preinclinations?
Isn’t that the same as being a biggott?
God Bless
James Brian Marshall
I said Joseph Smith was aquited of all charges every time, but I may have stretched the truth a bit.
Joseph Smith was a hunted man, because the Book of Mormon condemned the churches of his day.
While revieling how the evil one works to decieve men.
People did hunt Smith, going after Joseph to either kill or discredit him. I will say he was exhonerated in most courts of law in front of his false accusers… That would be closer to the truth.
James Marshall
I know personally that the LDS church has lied. They also misrepresent. Look at their biographical film of Joseph, it doesn’t even mention polygamy!!!!!!!!
Well, it seems you have forgotten that you are discounting the evidence of Jesus’ polygamy . . . so I think you are really the pot calling the kettle “black”
Also, I am not omitting evidence, I am duly noting it and then studiously excluding it as not the most likely conclusion. Bottom line its hard to really tell what was going with Joseph and all those women, but I think its fair to say that whether or not he was as much of a polygamist as people claim, “totally faithful monogamist husband” doesn’t seem be the most fitting description.
Again, when the rubber hits the road, you only trust courts when they come out on your side. Wasn’t it a court that condemned Jesus? Well sir, are you going to stand on the side of that court?!!!! if so, why are you so quick to stand on the side of this one?!
I say that courts of this world will crumble and collapse with their damnable judgments and the truth shall only be found elsewhere. The “judgments” issued by many of these dens of pride make the devil paleAll those who stand on the side of the calumny and defamation of these worldly judges of these carnal courts will not fair will when they reach the ultimate “court”. . MARK MY WORDS.
Its a sign of the times, is it not?
Also, the law has already spoken on who really carried on the teachings of Joseph. The LDS church of Utah is the only church that bears the name that Joseph gave it, its been settled in court.
Actual Name belongs to Polygamist Church => Joseph was a Polygamist.
James,
Someone recently made me aware of a quotation from Bertrand Russell that highlights the difference between our mindsets that I see as the reason why we can’t have a useful dialog: “What is needed is not the will to believe but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite.”
If I care about Joseph Smith, its because I’m curious about what he did and how it affected the modern collection of sects known as Mormonism. In other words, I want to find out.
On the other hand, I view your website and find stuff like the Los Lunas Decalogue Stone, exactly the kind of thing that someone would latch onto if they wanted to believe despite the evidence that tends to discredit it. Hugh Nibley, a scholar known to stretch evidence to the breaking point in order to justify Joseph Smith’s purported translations, denounced it as an easily detected fraud. If even Nibley is willing to denounce it, that doesn’t speak highly of it.
So from all the evidence available to me, you seem to have a strong will to believe in Joseph Smith, strong enough to cling to shaky evidence while ignoring contradicting evidence like the erroneous translations of the Book of Abraham and the Kinderhook Plates. This same attitude applies when you discuss Joseph’s polygamous marriages.
For our host’s sake, I won’t respond to you anymore here. If you want to continue this further, I’ve created an open thread on my blog where you can show me the error in my reasoning.
Thanks, Jonathan. As much as I love getting the blog traffic that this post and this discussion get me, it’s honestly strayed pretty far from what I’m actually interested in, and has become kind of a blog-distractor. But I didn’t want to be a dick and shut the discussion down if everyone else was having a grand old time.
So now that I can shut down the thread without shutting down the legitimate conversation, I am going to. I’ll put a note at the bottom of the original post pointing toward your blog.
Re-opened. Go nuts.
For my part, I never heard back about any errors in my reasoning, so ipso facto my arguments must be unimpeachable. 😉
Agreed. If they were impeachable, someone surely would have impeached them.
That’s my favorite.